| 1 | COMPUTER CHIPS ARE STILL 'MADE IN USA' (AXIOS.COM) \r |
| 2 | \r |
| 3 | Thursday September 06, 2018 @11:30PM (msmash)\r |
| 4 | from the how-about-that dept.\r |
| 5 | \r |
| 6 | o Reference: 0102636958\r |
| 7 | o News link: https://news.slashdot.org/story/18/09/06/1558206/computer-chips-are-still-made-in-usa\r |
| 8 | o Source link: https://www.axios.com/computer-chips-manufacturing-america--10dcfe13-64f3-4ea9-ad4a-cb189a00429a.html\r |
| 9 | \r |
| 10 | \r |
| 11 | For all the wishful thinking about manufacturing more laptops\r |
| 12 | and iPhones in the U.S., there is [1]one sector of tech\r |
| 13 | manufacturing where America remains a leader: computer chips .\r |
| 14 | From a report:\r |
| 15 | \r |
| 16 | > Some $44 billion worth of semiconductors are exported from\r |
| 17 | the U.S. each year, making them America's fourth leading\r |
| 18 | manufacturing export after cars, airplanes and refined oil.\r |
| 19 | There are roughly 80 wafer fabrication plants (aka fabs) in\r |
| 20 | the U.S., spread across 19 states. [...] An even greater share\r |
| 21 | of the world's computer chips are designed domestically and\r |
| 22 | made overseas by companies including Qualcomm, Apple, Broadcom\r |
| 23 | and Nvidia. A bunch of the high-tech gear needed to produce\r |
| 24 | chips is also designed and/or made in the U.S.\r |
| 25 | \r |
| 26 | \r |
| 27 | \r |
| 28 | [1] https://www.axios.com/computer-chips-manufacturing-america-\r |
| 29 | -10dcfe13-64f3-4ea9-ad4a-cb189a00429a.html\r |
| 30 | \r |
| 31 | \r |
| 32 | ** \r |
| 33 | \r |
| 34 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r |
| 35 | (by bobbied ( 2522392 ))\r |
| 36 | \r |
| 37 | \r |
| 38 | Why?\r |
| 39 | Politics of course..\r |
| 40 | \r |
| 41 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r |
| 42 | (by Alwin Barni ( 5107629 ))\r |
| 43 | \r |
| 44 | \r |
| 45 | > Why?\r |
| 46 | > Politics of course..\r |
| 47 | Could you please expand?\r |
| 48 | \r |
| 49 | ** Re:Why is it "wishful thinking"? (Score:5, Funny)\r |
| 50 | (by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ))\r |
| 51 | \r |
| 52 | \r |
| 53 | >> Why?\r |
| 54 | >> Politics of course..\r |
| 55 | > Could you please expand?\r |
| 56 | P o l i t i c s o f c o u r s e.\r |
| 57 | \r |
| 58 | ** Re: (Score:2, Funny)\r |
| 59 | (by Anonymous Coward)\r |
| 60 | \r |
| 61 | \r |
| 62 | >>> Why?\r |
| 63 | >>> Politics of course..\r |
| 64 | >> Could you please expand?\r |
| 65 | > \r |
| 66 | > P o l i t i c s o f c o u r s e.\r |
| 67 | > \r |
| 68 | I'm not sure if I should laugh, or hunt you down and\r |
| 69 | smack you upside your head with a 2x4.\r |
| 70 | \r |
| 71 | ** Re: (Score:3)\r |
| 72 | (by Highdude702 ( 4456913 ))\r |
| 73 | \r |
| 74 | \r |
| 75 | I mean, I thought it was hilarious, and it wasn't\r |
| 76 | the name calling garbage you see here too often.\r |
| 77 | \r |
| 78 | \r |
| 79 | \r |
| 80 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r |
| 81 | (by Alwin Barni ( 5107629 ))\r |
| 82 | \r |
| 83 | \r |
| 84 | :-)\r |
| 85 | However:\r |
| 86 | expand ikspand/\r |
| 87 | verb\r |
| 88 | verb: expand; 3rd person present: expands; past\r |
| 89 | tense: expanded; past participle: expanded; gerund\r |
| 90 | or present participle: expanding\r |
| 91 | * become or make larger or more extensive\r |
| 92 | * give a fuller version or account of.\r |
| 93 | \r |
| 94 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r |
| 95 | (by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ))\r |
| 96 | \r |
| 97 | \r |
| 98 | > :-)\r |
| 99 | > However: expand - verb ...\r |
| 100 | > (1) become or make larger or more extensive\r |
| 101 | > (2) give a fuller version or account of.\r |
| 102 | Yup, I know; I was married to an English teacher\r |
| 103 | for 20 years, but using the first definition was\r |
| 104 | funnier. :-)\r |
| 105 | [1]Remember Sue... [tumblr.com]\r |
| 106 | \r |
| 107 | \r |
| 108 | \r |
| 109 | \r |
| 110 | [1] http://remembersue.tumblr.com/\r |
| 111 | \r |
| 112 | \r |
| 113 | \r |
| 114 | \r |
| 115 | \r |
| 116 | \r |
| 117 | ** Re: Why is it "wishful thinking"? (Score:1)\r |
| 118 | (by Anonymous Coward)\r |
| 119 | \r |
| 120 | \r |
| 121 | The only reason is automation. Jobs were never going to come\r |
| 122 | back from chip manufacturing.\r |
| 123 | They have a factory crew for setting up the parts and feeding\r |
| 124 | the machines. Pretty cheap, doesn't actually make much money\r |
| 125 | for anyone but the corporation running it. It's all\r |
| 126 | "unskilled" and low pay...setting up all those machines,\r |
| 127 | getting material dimensions in spec and running the machine\r |
| 128 | is just considered general labor.\r |
| 129 | \r |
| 130 | \r |
| 131 | ** Re: (Score:3)\r |
| 132 | (by YuppieScum ( 1096 ))\r |
| 133 | \r |
| 134 | \r |
| 135 | > If the US leads in chip manufacture, why can't it be\r |
| 136 | > competitive in putting the pieces together?\r |
| 137 | Because most of the CPU silicon used in the commonest devices\r |
| 138 | - phones and laptops - is fabbed in Asia.\r |
| 139 | \r |
| 140 | Because most of the parts - like screens, RAM and flash\r |
| 141 | storage - are also made in Asia, so it's cheaper to bolt it\r |
| 142 | all together in a location closest to the source of the most\r |
| 143 | parts.\r |
| 144 | \r |
| 145 | Because final assembly of something like an iPhone is a\r |
| 146 | manual process that requires the dexterity of nimble fingers.\r |
| 147 | It's not quite the same as bolting doors onto a Chevvy.\r |
| 148 | \r |
| 149 | \r |
| 150 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r |
| 151 | (by GameboyRMH ( 1153867 ))\r |
| 152 | \r |
| 153 | \r |
| 154 | Because it hardly has any of the pieces right now - it would\r |
| 155 | be a massive effort to put all the supply chains in place for\r |
| 156 | the various electronics components needed for a whole\r |
| 157 | computer when the US currently makes little more than chips.\r |
| 158 | Currently those supply chains are in Asia (which also has the\r |
| 159 | advantages of cheap labor and lax environmental laws). I'd\r |
| 160 | compare it to going from just making engine blocks to making\r |
| 161 | a whole car, but that underplays the difficulty too much.\r |
| 162 | \r |
| 163 | \r |
| 164 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r |
| 165 | (by AHuxley ( 892839 ))\r |
| 166 | \r |
| 167 | \r |
| 168 | Re "why can't it be competitive in putting the pieces\r |
| 169 | together?"\r |
| 170 | Think back to the 1970 and 1980's when the CPU thing needed\r |
| 171 | new production lines and was no longer low yield skilled lab\r |
| 172 | work.\r |
| 173 | Non first world nations part pay their workers in food,\r |
| 174 | dormitories. Their introduction to work is free as its part\r |
| 175 | of the nations free "education".\r |
| 176 | Tax reductions and industrial export support then further\r |
| 177 | supports the electronics brand in the poor nation.\r |
| 178 | No unions. Lots of pollution.\r |
| 179 | \r |
| 180 | The big brands moved to ver\r |
| 181 | \r |
| 182 | \r |
| 183 | ** But for how long? (Score:2)\r |
| 184 | (by DMJC ( 682799 ))\r |
| 185 | \r |
| 186 | \r |
| 187 | Sure they still do, but China is beginning to manufacture X86\r |
| 188 | CPUs directly. It's only a matter of time until they catch up\r |
| 189 | and crush Intel and AMD through undercutting, and throwing money\r |
| 190 | at the problem. [1]https://www.tomshardware.com/n...\r |
| 191 | [tomshardware.com]\r |
| 192 | \r |
| 193 | \r |
| 194 | \r |
| 195 | \r |
| 196 | [1]\r |
| 197 | https://www.tomshardware.com/news/china-zen-x86-processor-dryhan-\r |
| 198 | a,37417.html\r |
| 199 | \r |
| 200 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r |
| 201 | (by Dallas May ( 4891515 ))\r |
| 202 | \r |
| 203 | \r |
| 204 | In the long run, yes. Probably not really soon. There are\r |
| 205 | plenty of significant advances happening that space right\r |
| 206 | now. They might market to the far low end PCs, but they\r |
| 207 | aren't the market AMD and Intel really want anyway.\r |
| 208 | \r |
| 209 | \r |
| 210 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r |
| 211 | (by jon3k ( 691256 ))\r |
| 212 | \r |
| 213 | \r |
| 214 | By then (10-20 years, if they're lucky) the desktop will be\r |
| 215 | commoditized and mobile (ie laptops) mostly replaced with\r |
| 216 | ARM. All the growth is in the server market and China is a\r |
| 217 | long, long way from producing an X86 CPU that can compete\r |
| 218 | with Intel Xeons. Who knows what the landscape will look like\r |
| 219 | by then.\r |
| 220 | \r |
| 221 | ** Re: But for how long? (Score:2)\r |
| 222 | (by adolf ( 21054 ))\r |
| 223 | \r |
| 224 | \r |
| 225 | This will also be the year of Linux on the desktop!\r |
| 226 | \r |
| 227 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r |
| 228 | (by tsa ( 15680 ))\r |
| 229 | \r |
| 230 | \r |
| 231 | Yeah, paradise is near!\r |
| 232 | \r |
| 233 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r |
| 234 | (by adolf ( 21054 ))\r |
| 235 | \r |
| 236 | \r |
| 237 | We're on the home stretch, boys!\r |
| 238 | \r |
| 239 | \r |
| 240 | \r |
| 241 | \r |
| 242 | \r |
| 243 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r |
| 244 | (by AHuxley ( 892839 ))\r |
| 245 | \r |
| 246 | \r |
| 247 | As long as the NRO needs hand crafted space CPU products.\r |
| 248 | \r |
| 249 | \r |
| 250 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r |
| 251 | (by CaffeinatedBacon ( 5363221 ))\r |
| 252 | \r |
| 253 | \r |
| 254 | But who will people trust to make their CPU's. Intel with\r |
| 255 | their "management engine" and AMD etc all with the same is\r |
| 256 | already freaking enough people out.\r |
| 257 | Who is going to want a Chinese CPU with who knows what\r |
| 258 | running on it that you will never be able to see, has access\r |
| 259 | to everything, and can do anything it wants to "your\r |
| 260 | computer" and "your data".\r |
| 261 | Most countries would probably just ban them like they are\r |
| 262 | [1]doing for 5G telecom equipment already. [nytimes.com]\r |
| 263 | \r |
| 264 | \r |
| 265 | \r |
| 266 | \r |
| 267 | [1]\r |
| 268 | https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/23/technology/huawei-banned-a-\r |
| 269 | ustralia-5g.html\r |
| 270 | \r |
| 271 | \r |
| 272 | ** Yeah, but . . . (Score:5, Interesting)\r |
| 273 | (by dtmos ( 447842 ) *)\r |
| 274 | \r |
| 275 | \r |
| 276 | . . . computer chips with state-of-the-art lithography soon all\r |
| 277 | will be manufactured overseas. Specifically, they will be made\r |
| 278 | by exactly two companies, [1]Samsung [samsungfoundry.com] and\r |
| 279 | [2]TSMC [tsmc.com], with GlobalFoundries' recent announcement\r |
| 280 | that it is [3]stopping development of its 7nm process\r |
| 281 | [anandtech.com]. GF operated the old IBM facility in Fishkill,\r |
| 282 | NY, and AFAIK was the last company offering state-of-the-art\r |
| 283 | foundry services with a fab in the US.\r |
| 284 | Intel is still in business, of course, and even has a [4]foundry\r |
| 285 | business [intel.com], but it cannot seem to successfully operate\r |
| 286 | it -- substantially all of its wafer starts are chips of its own\r |
| 287 | design. With the capital cost of each new-generation fab\r |
| 288 | reaching $20 billion, it's only a matter of time until Intel --\r |
| 289 | which has only its internal product base of chip designs to fill\r |
| 290 | its fabs, while Samsung and TSMC make chips for the entire\r |
| 291 | industry -- can no longer afford the move to the next\r |
| 292 | generation.\r |
| 293 | If the rest of the semiconductor industry (or the US DoD) wants\r |
| 294 | high-performance computer chips, there's now nowhere to go\r |
| 295 | except Samsung and TSMC. It will be interesting to see what\r |
| 296 | politicians do when they realize that the best digital chips can\r |
| 297 | no longer be manufactured in the US. The choice seems to be\r |
| 298 | either (1) have our economy -- everything from cell phones to\r |
| 299 | missiles -- dependent on chips manufactured overseas, or (2)\r |
| 300 | subsidize Intel's foundry business and the semiconductor\r |
| 301 | equipment manufacturers to the tune of tens of $billions, just\r |
| 302 | to keep a US source of high-performance semiconductors.\r |
| 303 | \r |
| 304 | \r |
| 305 | \r |
| 306 | \r |
| 307 | [1] https://www.samsungfoundry.com/foundry/homepage.do\r |
| 308 | [2] http://www.tsmc.com/english/default.htm\r |
| 309 | [3]\r |
| 310 | https://www.anandtech.com/show/13277/globalfoundries-stops-all-7-\r |
| 311 | nm-development\r |
| 312 | [4] https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/foundry/overview.html\r |
| 313 | \r |
| 314 | ** \r |
| 315 | \r |
| 316 | ** Re: (Score:3)\r |
| 317 | (by Dallas May ( 4891515 ))\r |
| 318 | \r |
| 319 | \r |
| 320 | The same reason they haven't produced a car yet. They\r |
| 321 | could, but they don't want to. They have good deals with\r |
| 322 | their current suppliers, so why make that investment?\r |
| 323 | \r |
| 324 | ** The normal Transition of economies (Score:2)\r |
| 325 | (by aberglas ( 991072 ))\r |
| 326 | \r |
| 327 | \r |
| 328 | 1. Primary production\r |
| 329 | 2. Manufacturing\r |
| 330 | 3. Services\r |
| 331 | Services will keep things going fine. Lawyers, tax\r |
| 332 | accountants, retail and beauty consultants. That is\r |
| 333 | where the growth will come from.\r |
| 334 | \r |
| 335 | \r |
| 336 | \r |
| 337 | \r |
| 338 | ** \r |
| 339 | \r |
| 340 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r |
| 341 | (by nateman1352 ( 971364 ))\r |
| 342 | \r |
| 343 | \r |
| 344 | TI doesn't have state-of-the-art lithography for digital.\r |
| 345 | They gave up on the Moore's Law race 10 years ago after\r |
| 346 | they reached 45nm. TI realized during the development of\r |
| 347 | WinRT that building CPUs requires very expensive fabs and\r |
| 348 | if you are not an x86 supplier then your only option is to\r |
| 349 | make ARM chips, which is a race to the bottom with very\r |
| 350 | thin margins. TI realized they can make more money\r |
| 351 | building mixed signal designs on older process.\r |
| 352 | \r |
| 353 | \r |
| 354 | \r |
| 355 | ** Re:Yeah, but . . . (Score:4, Insightful)\r |
| 356 | (by Graymalkin ( 13732 ) *)\r |
| 357 | \r |
| 358 | \r |
| 359 | State of the art lithography is not a synonym for\r |
| 360 | high-performance computer chips. In fact for a lot of uses,\r |
| 361 | DoD included, state of the art lithography is nowhere in the\r |
| 362 | requirements. Hardened chips on robust/insulated substrates\r |
| 363 | is more important in many uses than smaller die traces.\r |
| 364 | \r |
| 365 | \r |
| 366 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r |
| 367 | (by KalvinB ( 205500 ))\r |
| 368 | \r |
| 369 | \r |
| 370 | They'll be subsidized under issues of national security if\r |
| 371 | they're really needed by the government. The government\r |
| 372 | generally doesn't run bleeding edge technology so the chips\r |
| 373 | that can be produced in the US will be plenty sufficient for\r |
| 374 | government needs. If the government ever needs a $20 billion\r |
| 375 | plant, they'll cut a check under the national defense budget.\r |
| 376 | We've been comfortable with foreign made chips for decades in\r |
| 377 | the consumer market. Unless there is a severe national\r |
| 378 | security issue that won't change.\r |
| 379 | \r |
| 380 | \r |
| 381 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r |
| 382 | (by nateman1352 ( 971364 ))\r |
| 383 | \r |
| 384 | \r |
| 385 | Intel has the same fundamental problem with foundry that AMD\r |
| 386 | had 10 years ago. Every 3rd party company does not trust\r |
| 387 | Intel to prioritize their products over Intel's own products.\r |
| 388 | Intel will always build their own products on the latest\r |
| 389 | process node first. If you fab with Intel then your wafers\r |
| 390 | will always get 2nd priority over Intel's own wafers. The\r |
| 391 | only way that is not the case is if you are such a huge\r |
| 392 | customer that your contract requires Intel to construct an\r |
| 393 | entire new factory just for you. Then you h\r |
| 394 | \r |
| 395 | \r |
| 396 | ** Poor writing in TFA (Score:5, Informative)\r |
| 397 | (by whoever57 ( 658626 ))\r |
| 398 | \r |
| 399 | \r |
| 400 | "An even greater share of the world's computer chips are\r |
| 401 | designed domestically and made overseas by companies including\r |
| 402 | Qualcomm, Apple, Broadcom and Nvidia."\r |
| 403 | This reads as though Qualcomm, Apple, Broadcom and Nvidia are\r |
| 404 | making chips. What would be clear and accurate is:\r |
| 405 | "An even greater share of the world's computer chips are\r |
| 406 | designed domestically by companies including Qualcomm, Apple,\r |
| 407 | Broadcom and Nvidia and made overseas."\r |
| 408 | \r |
| 409 | ** Still somewhat misleading... (Score:4, Informative)\r |
| 410 | (by YuppieScum ( 1096 ))\r |
| 411 | \r |
| 412 | \r |
| 413 | Don't forget, a hefty chunk of Qualcomm's - and pretty much\r |
| 414 | all of Apple's - designs are not original, but instead are\r |
| 415 | based on IP from ARM, a British company (although recently\r |
| 416 | bought out by SoftBank).\r |
| 417 | \r |
| 418 | In fact, Broadcom and Nvidia are also licencees of ARM IP as\r |
| 419 | well, but less of their overall product range derives from\r |
| 420 | it.\r |
| 421 | \r |
| 422 | \r |
| 423 | ** Are you sure? (Score:3, Interesting)\r |
| 424 | (by Gabest ( 852807 ))\r |
| 425 | \r |
| 426 | \r |
| 427 | TSMC and Samsung are the leaders in chip making. And second\r |
| 428 | class Intel and AMD both have shady Middle-East ties from Israel\r |
| 429 | and Dubai.\r |
| 430 | \r |
| 431 | ** 13% market share is not good (Score:4, Interesting)\r |
| 432 | (by Goldsmith ( 561202 ))\r |
| 433 | \r |
| 434 | \r |
| 435 | This is a crazy article. At the end, it meekly points out that\r |
| 436 | the US has a 13% market share in chip production. Given that the\r |
| 437 | US started this industry, leads in design in this space, leads\r |
| 438 | in capital available for high tech industry, and that the US\r |
| 439 | accounts for 15% to 18% of global GDP, a 13% market share in\r |
| 440 | chip production is very poor performance. This is below what you\r |
| 441 | might expect for a simple commodity that depends only on\r |
| 442 | domestic market size and way below what you'd expect for this\r |
| 443 | industry.\r |
| 444 | \r |
| 445 | \r |