Commit | Line | Data |
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299a08f3 NR |
1 | COMPUTER CHIPS ARE STILL 'MADE IN USA' (AXIOS.COM) \r |
2 | \r | |
3 | Thursday September 06, 2018 @11:30PM (msmash)\r | |
4 | from the how-about-that dept.\r | |
5 | \r | |
c715ea02 | 6 | o Reference: 0102636958\r |
299a08f3 NR |
7 | o News link: https://news.slashdot.org/story/18/09/06/1558206/computer-chips-are-still-made-in-usa\r |
8 | o Source link: https://www.axios.com/computer-chips-manufacturing-america--10dcfe13-64f3-4ea9-ad4a-cb189a00429a.html\r | |
9 | \r | |
10 | \r | |
11 | For all the wishful thinking about manufacturing more laptops\r | |
e818d449 NR |
12 | and iPhones in the U.S., there is [1]one sector of tech\r |
13 | manufacturing where America remains a leader: computer chips .\r | |
14 | From a report:\r | |
15 | \r | |
16 | > Some $44 billion worth of semiconductors are exported from\r | |
17 | the U.S. each year, making them America's fourth leading\r | |
18 | manufacturing export after cars, airplanes and refined oil.\r | |
19 | There are roughly 80 wafer fabrication plants (aka fabs) in\r | |
20 | the U.S., spread across 19 states. [...] An even greater share\r | |
21 | of the world's computer chips are designed domestically and\r | |
22 | made overseas by companies including Qualcomm, Apple, Broadcom\r | |
23 | and Nvidia. A bunch of the high-tech gear needed to produce\r | |
24 | chips is also designed and/or made in the U.S.\r | |
25 | \r | |
26 | \r | |
27 | \r | |
28 | [1] https://www.axios.com/computer-chips-manufacturing-america-\r | |
29 | -10dcfe13-64f3-4ea9-ad4a-cb189a00429a.html\r | |
299a08f3 NR |
30 | \r |
31 | \r | |
32 | ** \r | |
33 | \r | |
34 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r | |
35 | (by bobbied ( 2522392 ))\r | |
36 | \r | |
37 | \r | |
38 | Why?\r | |
39 | Politics of course..\r | |
40 | \r | |
41 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r | |
42 | (by Alwin Barni ( 5107629 ))\r | |
43 | \r | |
44 | \r | |
45 | > Why?\r | |
46 | > Politics of course..\r | |
47 | Could you please expand?\r | |
48 | \r | |
49 | ** Re:Why is it "wishful thinking"? (Score:5, Funny)\r | |
50 | (by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ))\r | |
51 | \r | |
52 | \r | |
53 | >> Why?\r | |
54 | >> Politics of course..\r | |
55 | > Could you please expand?\r | |
56 | P o l i t i c s o f c o u r s e.\r | |
57 | \r | |
58 | ** Re: (Score:2, Funny)\r | |
59 | (by Anonymous Coward)\r | |
60 | \r | |
61 | \r | |
62 | >>> Why?\r | |
63 | >>> Politics of course..\r | |
64 | >> Could you please expand?\r | |
65 | > \r | |
66 | > P o l i t i c s o f c o u r s e.\r | |
67 | > \r | |
68 | I'm not sure if I should laugh, or hunt you down and\r | |
69 | smack you upside your head with a 2x4.\r | |
70 | \r | |
71 | ** Re: (Score:3)\r | |
72 | (by Highdude702 ( 4456913 ))\r | |
73 | \r | |
74 | \r | |
75 | I mean, I thought it was hilarious, and it wasn't\r | |
76 | the name calling garbage you see here too often.\r | |
77 | \r | |
78 | \r | |
79 | \r | |
80 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r | |
81 | (by Alwin Barni ( 5107629 ))\r | |
82 | \r | |
83 | \r | |
84 | :-)\r | |
85 | However:\r | |
86 | expand ikspand/\r | |
87 | verb\r | |
88 | verb: expand; 3rd person present: expands; past\r | |
89 | tense: expanded; past participle: expanded; gerund\r | |
90 | or present participle: expanding\r | |
91 | * become or make larger or more extensive\r | |
92 | * give a fuller version or account of.\r | |
93 | \r | |
94 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r | |
95 | (by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ))\r | |
96 | \r | |
97 | \r | |
98 | > :-)\r | |
99 | > However: expand - verb ...\r | |
100 | > (1) become or make larger or more extensive\r | |
101 | > (2) give a fuller version or account of.\r | |
102 | Yup, I know; I was married to an English teacher\r | |
103 | for 20 years, but using the first definition was\r | |
104 | funnier. :-)\r | |
105 | [1]Remember Sue... [tumblr.com]\r | |
106 | \r | |
107 | \r | |
108 | \r | |
109 | \r | |
110 | [1] http://remembersue.tumblr.com/\r | |
111 | \r | |
112 | \r | |
113 | \r | |
114 | \r | |
115 | \r | |
116 | \r | |
117 | ** Re: Why is it "wishful thinking"? (Score:1)\r | |
118 | (by Anonymous Coward)\r | |
119 | \r | |
120 | \r | |
121 | The only reason is automation. Jobs were never going to come\r | |
122 | back from chip manufacturing.\r | |
123 | They have a factory crew for setting up the parts and feeding\r | |
124 | the machines. Pretty cheap, doesn't actually make much money\r | |
125 | for anyone but the corporation running it. It's all\r | |
126 | "unskilled" and low pay...setting up all those machines,\r | |
127 | getting material dimensions in spec and running the machine\r | |
128 | is just considered general labor.\r | |
129 | \r | |
130 | \r | |
131 | ** Re: (Score:3)\r | |
132 | (by YuppieScum ( 1096 ))\r | |
133 | \r | |
134 | \r | |
135 | > If the US leads in chip manufacture, why can't it be\r | |
136 | > competitive in putting the pieces together?\r | |
137 | Because most of the CPU silicon used in the commonest devices\r | |
138 | - phones and laptops - is fabbed in Asia.\r | |
139 | \r | |
140 | Because most of the parts - like screens, RAM and flash\r | |
141 | storage - are also made in Asia, so it's cheaper to bolt it\r | |
142 | all together in a location closest to the source of the most\r | |
143 | parts.\r | |
144 | \r | |
145 | Because final assembly of something like an iPhone is a\r | |
146 | manual process that requires the dexterity of nimble fingers.\r | |
147 | It's not quite the same as bolting doors onto a Chevvy.\r | |
148 | \r | |
149 | \r | |
150 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r | |
151 | (by GameboyRMH ( 1153867 ))\r | |
152 | \r | |
153 | \r | |
154 | Because it hardly has any of the pieces right now - it would\r | |
155 | be a massive effort to put all the supply chains in place for\r | |
156 | the various electronics components needed for a whole\r | |
157 | computer when the US currently makes little more than chips.\r | |
158 | Currently those supply chains are in Asia (which also has the\r | |
159 | advantages of cheap labor and lax environmental laws). I'd\r | |
160 | compare it to going from just making engine blocks to making\r | |
161 | a whole car, but that underplays the difficulty too much.\r | |
162 | \r | |
163 | \r | |
164 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r | |
165 | (by AHuxley ( 892839 ))\r | |
166 | \r | |
167 | \r | |
168 | Re "why can't it be competitive in putting the pieces\r | |
169 | together?"\r | |
170 | Think back to the 1970 and 1980's when the CPU thing needed\r | |
171 | new production lines and was no longer low yield skilled lab\r | |
172 | work.\r | |
173 | Non first world nations part pay their workers in food,\r | |
174 | dormitories. Their introduction to work is free as its part\r | |
175 | of the nations free "education".\r | |
176 | Tax reductions and industrial export support then further\r | |
177 | supports the electronics brand in the poor nation.\r | |
178 | No unions. Lots of pollution.\r | |
179 | \r | |
180 | The big brands moved to ver\r | |
181 | \r | |
182 | \r | |
183 | ** But for how long? (Score:2)\r | |
184 | (by DMJC ( 682799 ))\r | |
185 | \r | |
186 | \r | |
187 | Sure they still do, but China is beginning to manufacture X86\r | |
188 | CPUs directly. It's only a matter of time until they catch up\r | |
189 | and crush Intel and AMD through undercutting, and throwing money\r | |
190 | at the problem. [1]https://www.tomshardware.com/n...\r | |
191 | [tomshardware.com]\r | |
192 | \r | |
193 | \r | |
194 | \r | |
195 | \r | |
196 | [1]\r | |
197 | https://www.tomshardware.com/news/china-zen-x86-processor-dryhan-\r | |
198 | a,37417.html\r | |
199 | \r | |
200 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r | |
201 | (by Dallas May ( 4891515 ))\r | |
202 | \r | |
203 | \r | |
204 | In the long run, yes. Probably not really soon. There are\r | |
205 | plenty of significant advances happening that space right\r | |
206 | now. They might market to the far low end PCs, but they\r | |
207 | aren't the market AMD and Intel really want anyway.\r | |
208 | \r | |
209 | \r | |
210 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r | |
211 | (by jon3k ( 691256 ))\r | |
212 | \r | |
213 | \r | |
214 | By then (10-20 years, if they're lucky) the desktop will be\r | |
215 | commoditized and mobile (ie laptops) mostly replaced with\r | |
216 | ARM. All the growth is in the server market and China is a\r | |
217 | long, long way from producing an X86 CPU that can compete\r | |
218 | with Intel Xeons. Who knows what the landscape will look like\r | |
219 | by then.\r | |
220 | \r | |
221 | ** Re: But for how long? (Score:2)\r | |
222 | (by adolf ( 21054 ))\r | |
223 | \r | |
224 | \r | |
225 | This will also be the year of Linux on the desktop!\r | |
226 | \r | |
227 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r | |
228 | (by tsa ( 15680 ))\r | |
229 | \r | |
230 | \r | |
231 | Yeah, paradise is near!\r | |
232 | \r | |
233 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r | |
234 | (by adolf ( 21054 ))\r | |
235 | \r | |
236 | \r | |
237 | We're on the home stretch, boys!\r | |
238 | \r | |
239 | \r | |
240 | \r | |
241 | \r | |
242 | \r | |
243 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r | |
244 | (by AHuxley ( 892839 ))\r | |
245 | \r | |
246 | \r | |
247 | As long as the NRO needs hand crafted space CPU products.\r | |
248 | \r | |
249 | \r | |
250 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r | |
251 | (by CaffeinatedBacon ( 5363221 ))\r | |
252 | \r | |
253 | \r | |
254 | But who will people trust to make their CPU's. Intel with\r | |
255 | their "management engine" and AMD etc all with the same is\r | |
256 | already freaking enough people out.\r | |
257 | Who is going to want a Chinese CPU with who knows what\r | |
258 | running on it that you will never be able to see, has access\r | |
259 | to everything, and can do anything it wants to "your\r | |
260 | computer" and "your data".\r | |
261 | Most countries would probably just ban them like they are\r | |
262 | [1]doing for 5G telecom equipment already. [nytimes.com]\r | |
263 | \r | |
264 | \r | |
265 | \r | |
266 | \r | |
267 | [1]\r | |
268 | https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/23/technology/huawei-banned-a-\r | |
269 | ustralia-5g.html\r | |
270 | \r | |
271 | \r | |
272 | ** Yeah, but . . . (Score:5, Interesting)\r | |
273 | (by dtmos ( 447842 ) *)\r | |
274 | \r | |
275 | \r | |
276 | . . . computer chips with state-of-the-art lithography soon all\r | |
277 | will be manufactured overseas. Specifically, they will be made\r | |
278 | by exactly two companies, [1]Samsung [samsungfoundry.com] and\r | |
279 | [2]TSMC [tsmc.com], with GlobalFoundries' recent announcement\r | |
280 | that it is [3]stopping development of its 7nm process\r | |
281 | [anandtech.com]. GF operated the old IBM facility in Fishkill,\r | |
282 | NY, and AFAIK was the last company offering state-of-the-art\r | |
283 | foundry services with a fab in the US.\r | |
284 | Intel is still in business, of course, and even has a [4]foundry\r | |
285 | business [intel.com], but it cannot seem to successfully operate\r | |
286 | it -- substantially all of its wafer starts are chips of its own\r | |
287 | design. With the capital cost of each new-generation fab\r | |
288 | reaching $20 billion, it's only a matter of time until Intel --\r | |
289 | which has only its internal product base of chip designs to fill\r | |
290 | its fabs, while Samsung and TSMC make chips for the entire\r | |
291 | industry -- can no longer afford the move to the next\r | |
292 | generation.\r | |
293 | If the rest of the semiconductor industry (or the US DoD) wants\r | |
294 | high-performance computer chips, there's now nowhere to go\r | |
295 | except Samsung and TSMC. It will be interesting to see what\r | |
296 | politicians do when they realize that the best digital chips can\r | |
297 | no longer be manufactured in the US. The choice seems to be\r | |
298 | either (1) have our economy -- everything from cell phones to\r | |
299 | missiles -- dependent on chips manufactured overseas, or (2)\r | |
300 | subsidize Intel's foundry business and the semiconductor\r | |
301 | equipment manufacturers to the tune of tens of $billions, just\r | |
302 | to keep a US source of high-performance semiconductors.\r | |
303 | \r | |
304 | \r | |
305 | \r | |
306 | \r | |
307 | [1] https://www.samsungfoundry.com/foundry/homepage.do\r | |
308 | [2] http://www.tsmc.com/english/default.htm\r | |
309 | [3]\r | |
310 | https://www.anandtech.com/show/13277/globalfoundries-stops-all-7-\r | |
311 | nm-development\r | |
312 | [4] https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/foundry/overview.html\r | |
313 | \r | |
314 | ** \r | |
315 | \r | |
316 | ** Re: (Score:3)\r | |
317 | (by Dallas May ( 4891515 ))\r | |
318 | \r | |
319 | \r | |
320 | The same reason they haven't produced a car yet. They\r | |
321 | could, but they don't want to. They have good deals with\r | |
322 | their current suppliers, so why make that investment?\r | |
323 | \r | |
324 | ** The normal Transition of economies (Score:2)\r | |
325 | (by aberglas ( 991072 ))\r | |
326 | \r | |
327 | \r | |
328 | 1. Primary production\r | |
329 | 2. Manufacturing\r | |
330 | 3. Services\r | |
331 | Services will keep things going fine. Lawyers, tax\r | |
332 | accountants, retail and beauty consultants. That is\r | |
333 | where the growth will come from.\r | |
334 | \r | |
335 | \r | |
336 | \r | |
337 | \r | |
338 | ** \r | |
339 | \r | |
340 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r | |
341 | (by nateman1352 ( 971364 ))\r | |
342 | \r | |
343 | \r | |
344 | TI doesn't have state-of-the-art lithography for digital.\r | |
345 | They gave up on the Moore's Law race 10 years ago after\r | |
346 | they reached 45nm. TI realized during the development of\r | |
347 | WinRT that building CPUs requires very expensive fabs and\r | |
348 | if you are not an x86 supplier then your only option is to\r | |
349 | make ARM chips, which is a race to the bottom with very\r | |
350 | thin margins. TI realized they can make more money\r | |
351 | building mixed signal designs on older process.\r | |
352 | \r | |
353 | \r | |
354 | \r | |
355 | ** Re:Yeah, but . . . (Score:4, Insightful)\r | |
356 | (by Graymalkin ( 13732 ) *)\r | |
357 | \r | |
358 | \r | |
359 | State of the art lithography is not a synonym for\r | |
360 | high-performance computer chips. In fact for a lot of uses,\r | |
361 | DoD included, state of the art lithography is nowhere in the\r | |
362 | requirements. Hardened chips on robust/insulated substrates\r | |
363 | is more important in many uses than smaller die traces.\r | |
364 | \r | |
365 | \r | |
366 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r | |
367 | (by KalvinB ( 205500 ))\r | |
368 | \r | |
369 | \r | |
370 | They'll be subsidized under issues of national security if\r | |
371 | they're really needed by the government. The government\r | |
372 | generally doesn't run bleeding edge technology so the chips\r | |
373 | that can be produced in the US will be plenty sufficient for\r | |
374 | government needs. If the government ever needs a $20 billion\r | |
375 | plant, they'll cut a check under the national defense budget.\r | |
376 | We've been comfortable with foreign made chips for decades in\r | |
377 | the consumer market. Unless there is a severe national\r | |
378 | security issue that won't change.\r | |
379 | \r | |
380 | \r | |
381 | ** Re: (Score:2)\r | |
382 | (by nateman1352 ( 971364 ))\r | |
383 | \r | |
384 | \r | |
385 | Intel has the same fundamental problem with foundry that AMD\r | |
386 | had 10 years ago. Every 3rd party company does not trust\r | |
387 | Intel to prioritize their products over Intel's own products.\r | |
388 | Intel will always build their own products on the latest\r | |
389 | process node first. If you fab with Intel then your wafers\r | |
390 | will always get 2nd priority over Intel's own wafers. The\r | |
391 | only way that is not the case is if you are such a huge\r | |
392 | customer that your contract requires Intel to construct an\r | |
393 | entire new factory just for you. Then you h\r | |
394 | \r | |
395 | \r | |
396 | ** Poor writing in TFA (Score:5, Informative)\r | |
397 | (by whoever57 ( 658626 ))\r | |
398 | \r | |
399 | \r | |
400 | "An even greater share of the world's computer chips are\r | |
401 | designed domestically and made overseas by companies including\r | |
402 | Qualcomm, Apple, Broadcom and Nvidia."\r | |
403 | This reads as though Qualcomm, Apple, Broadcom and Nvidia are\r | |
404 | making chips. What would be clear and accurate is:\r | |
405 | "An even greater share of the world's computer chips are\r | |
406 | designed domestically by companies including Qualcomm, Apple,\r | |
407 | Broadcom and Nvidia and made overseas."\r | |
408 | \r | |
409 | ** Still somewhat misleading... (Score:4, Informative)\r | |
410 | (by YuppieScum ( 1096 ))\r | |
411 | \r | |
412 | \r | |
413 | Don't forget, a hefty chunk of Qualcomm's - and pretty much\r | |
414 | all of Apple's - designs are not original, but instead are\r | |
415 | based on IP from ARM, a British company (although recently\r | |
416 | bought out by SoftBank).\r | |
417 | \r | |
418 | In fact, Broadcom and Nvidia are also licencees of ARM IP as\r | |
419 | well, but less of their overall product range derives from\r | |
420 | it.\r | |
421 | \r | |
422 | \r | |
423 | ** Are you sure? (Score:3, Interesting)\r | |
424 | (by Gabest ( 852807 ))\r | |
425 | \r | |
426 | \r | |
427 | TSMC and Samsung are the leaders in chip making. And second\r | |
428 | class Intel and AMD both have shady Middle-East ties from Israel\r | |
429 | and Dubai.\r | |
430 | \r | |
431 | ** 13% market share is not good (Score:4, Interesting)\r | |
432 | (by Goldsmith ( 561202 ))\r | |
433 | \r | |
434 | \r | |
435 | This is a crazy article. At the end, it meekly points out that\r | |
436 | the US has a 13% market share in chip production. Given that the\r | |
437 | US started this industry, leads in design in this space, leads\r | |
438 | in capital available for high tech industry, and that the US\r | |
439 | accounts for 15% to 18% of global GDP, a 13% market share in\r | |
440 | chip production is very poor performance. This is below what you\r | |
441 | might expect for a simple commodity that depends only on\r | |
442 | domestic market size and way below what you'd expect for this\r | |
443 | industry.\r | |
444 | \r | |
445 | \r |