Fix Redit changing IDs
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1 COMPUTER CHIPS ARE STILL 'MADE IN USA' (AXIOS.COM)
2
3 Thursday September 06, 2018 @11:30PM (msmash)
4 from the how-about-that dept.
5
6 o Reference: 0102636958
7 o News link: https://news.slashdot.org/story/18/09/06/1558206/computer-chips-are-still-made-in-usa
8 o Source link: https://www.axios.com/computer-chips-manufacturing-america--10dcfe13-64f3-4ea9-ad4a-cb189a00429a.html
9
10
11 For all the wishful thinking about manufacturing more laptops
12 and iPhones in the U.S., there is [1]one sector of tech
13 manufacturing where America remains a leader: computer chips .
14 From a report:
15
16 > Some $44 billion worth of semiconductors are exported from
17 the U.S. each year, making them America's fourth leading
18 manufacturing export after cars, airplanes and refined oil.
19 There are roughly 80 wafer fabrication plants (aka fabs) in
20 the U.S., spread across 19 states. [...] An even greater share
21 of the world's computer chips are designed domestically and
22 made overseas by companies including Qualcomm, Apple, Broadcom
23 and Nvidia. A bunch of the high-tech gear needed to produce
24 chips is also designed and/or made in the U.S.
25
26
27
28 [1] https://www.axios.com/computer-chips-manufacturing-america-
29 -10dcfe13-64f3-4ea9-ad4a-cb189a00429a.html
30
31
32 **
33
34 ** Re: (Score:2)
35 (by bobbied ( 2522392 ))
36
37
38 Why?
39 Politics of course..
40
41 ** Re: (Score:2)
42 (by Alwin Barni ( 5107629 ))
43
44
45 > Why?
46 > Politics of course..
47 Could you please expand?
48
49 ** Re:Why is it "wishful thinking"? (Score:5, Funny)
50 (by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ))
51
52
53 >> Why?
54 >> Politics of course..
55 > Could you please expand?
56 P o l i t i c s o f c o u r s e.
57
58 ** Re: (Score:2, Funny)
59 (by Anonymous Coward)
60
61
62 >>> Why?
63 >>> Politics of course..
64 >> Could you please expand?
65 >
66 > P o l i t i c s o f c o u r s e.
67 >
68 I'm not sure if I should laugh, or hunt you down and
69 smack you upside your head with a 2x4.
70
71 ** Re: (Score:3)
72 (by Highdude702 ( 4456913 ))
73
74
75 I mean, I thought it was hilarious, and it wasn't
76 the name calling garbage you see here too often.
77
78
79
80 ** Re: (Score:2)
81 (by Alwin Barni ( 5107629 ))
82
83
84 :-)
85 However:
86 expand ikspand/
87 verb
88 verb: expand; 3rd person present: expands; past
89 tense: expanded; past participle: expanded; gerund
90 or present participle: expanding
91 * become or make larger or more extensive
92 * give a fuller version or account of.
93
94 ** Re: (Score:2)
95 (by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ))
96
97
98 > :-)
99 > However: expand - verb ...
100 > (1) become or make larger or more extensive
101 > (2) give a fuller version or account of.
102 Yup, I know; I was married to an English teacher
103 for 20 years, but using the first definition was
104 funnier. :-)
105 [1]Remember Sue... [tumblr.com]
106
107
108
109
110 [1] http://remembersue.tumblr.com/
111
112
113
114
115
116
117 ** Re: Why is it "wishful thinking"? (Score:1)
118 (by Anonymous Coward)
119
120
121 The only reason is automation. Jobs were never going to come
122 back from chip manufacturing.
123 They have a factory crew for setting up the parts and feeding
124 the machines. Pretty cheap, doesn't actually make much money
125 for anyone but the corporation running it. It's all
126 "unskilled" and low pay...setting up all those machines,
127 getting material dimensions in spec and running the machine
128 is just considered general labor.
129
130
131 ** Re: (Score:3)
132 (by YuppieScum ( 1096 ))
133
134
135 > If the US leads in chip manufacture, why can't it be
136 > competitive in putting the pieces together?
137 Because most of the CPU silicon used in the commonest devices
138 - phones and laptops - is fabbed in Asia.
139
140 Because most of the parts - like screens, RAM and flash
141 storage - are also made in Asia, so it's cheaper to bolt it
142 all together in a location closest to the source of the most
143 parts.
144
145 Because final assembly of something like an iPhone is a
146 manual process that requires the dexterity of nimble fingers.
147 It's not quite the same as bolting doors onto a Chevvy.
148
149
150 ** Re: (Score:2)
151 (by GameboyRMH ( 1153867 ))
152
153
154 Because it hardly has any of the pieces right now - it would
155 be a massive effort to put all the supply chains in place for
156 the various electronics components needed for a whole
157 computer when the US currently makes little more than chips.
158 Currently those supply chains are in Asia (which also has the
159 advantages of cheap labor and lax environmental laws). I'd
160 compare it to going from just making engine blocks to making
161 a whole car, but that underplays the difficulty too much.
162
163
164 ** Re: (Score:2)
165 (by AHuxley ( 892839 ))
166
167
168 Re "why can't it be competitive in putting the pieces
169 together?"
170 Think back to the 1970 and 1980's when the CPU thing needed
171 new production lines and was no longer low yield skilled lab
172 work.
173 Non first world nations part pay their workers in food,
174 dormitories. Their introduction to work is free as its part
175 of the nations free "education".
176 Tax reductions and industrial export support then further
177 supports the electronics brand in the poor nation.
178 No unions. Lots of pollution.
179
180 The big brands moved to ver
181
182
183 ** But for how long? (Score:2)
184 (by DMJC ( 682799 ))
185
186
187 Sure they still do, but China is beginning to manufacture X86
188 CPUs directly. It's only a matter of time until they catch up
189 and crush Intel and AMD through undercutting, and throwing money
190 at the problem. [1]https://www.tomshardware.com/n...
191 [tomshardware.com]
192
193
194
195
196 [1]
197 https://www.tomshardware.com/news/china-zen-x86-processor-dryhan-
198 a,37417.html
199
200 ** Re: (Score:2)
201 (by Dallas May ( 4891515 ))
202
203
204 In the long run, yes. Probably not really soon. There are
205 plenty of significant advances happening that space right
206 now. They might market to the far low end PCs, but they
207 aren't the market AMD and Intel really want anyway.
208
209
210 ** Re: (Score:2)
211 (by jon3k ( 691256 ))
212
213
214 By then (10-20 years, if they're lucky) the desktop will be
215 commoditized and mobile (ie laptops) mostly replaced with
216 ARM. All the growth is in the server market and China is a
217 long, long way from producing an X86 CPU that can compete
218 with Intel Xeons. Who knows what the landscape will look like
219 by then.
220
221 ** Re: But for how long? (Score:2)
222 (by adolf ( 21054 ))
223
224
225 This will also be the year of Linux on the desktop!
226
227 ** Re: (Score:2)
228 (by tsa ( 15680 ))
229
230
231 Yeah, paradise is near!
232
233 ** Re: (Score:2)
234 (by adolf ( 21054 ))
235
236
237 We're on the home stretch, boys!
238
239
240
241
242
243 ** Re: (Score:2)
244 (by AHuxley ( 892839 ))
245
246
247 As long as the NRO needs hand crafted space CPU products.
248
249
250 ** Re: (Score:2)
251 (by CaffeinatedBacon ( 5363221 ))
252
253
254 But who will people trust to make their CPU's. Intel with
255 their "management engine" and AMD etc all with the same is
256 already freaking enough people out.
257 Who is going to want a Chinese CPU with who knows what
258 running on it that you will never be able to see, has access
259 to everything, and can do anything it wants to "your
260 computer" and "your data".
261 Most countries would probably just ban them like they are
262 [1]doing for 5G telecom equipment already. [nytimes.com]
263
264
265
266
267 [1]
268 https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/23/technology/huawei-banned-a-
269 ustralia-5g.html
270
271
272 ** Yeah, but . . . (Score:5, Interesting)
273 (by dtmos ( 447842 ) *)
274
275
276 . . . computer chips with state-of-the-art lithography soon all
277 will be manufactured overseas. Specifically, they will be made
278 by exactly two companies, [1]Samsung [samsungfoundry.com] and
279 [2]TSMC [tsmc.com], with GlobalFoundries' recent announcement
280 that it is [3]stopping development of its 7nm process
281 [anandtech.com]. GF operated the old IBM facility in Fishkill,
282 NY, and AFAIK was the last company offering state-of-the-art
283 foundry services with a fab in the US.
284 Intel is still in business, of course, and even has a [4]foundry
285 business [intel.com], but it cannot seem to successfully operate
286 it -- substantially all of its wafer starts are chips of its own
287 design. With the capital cost of each new-generation fab
288 reaching $20 billion, it's only a matter of time until Intel --
289 which has only its internal product base of chip designs to fill
290 its fabs, while Samsung and TSMC make chips for the entire
291 industry -- can no longer afford the move to the next
292 generation.
293 If the rest of the semiconductor industry (or the US DoD) wants
294 high-performance computer chips, there's now nowhere to go
295 except Samsung and TSMC. It will be interesting to see what
296 politicians do when they realize that the best digital chips can
297 no longer be manufactured in the US. The choice seems to be
298 either (1) have our economy -- everything from cell phones to
299 missiles -- dependent on chips manufactured overseas, or (2)
300 subsidize Intel's foundry business and the semiconductor
301 equipment manufacturers to the tune of tens of $billions, just
302 to keep a US source of high-performance semiconductors.
303
304
305
306
307 [1] https://www.samsungfoundry.com/foundry/homepage.do
308 [2] http://www.tsmc.com/english/default.htm
309 [3]
310 https://www.anandtech.com/show/13277/globalfoundries-stops-all-7-
311 nm-development
312 [4] https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/foundry/overview.html
313
314 **
315
316 ** Re: (Score:3)
317 (by Dallas May ( 4891515 ))
318
319
320 The same reason they haven't produced a car yet. They
321 could, but they don't want to. They have good deals with
322 their current suppliers, so why make that investment?
323
324 ** The normal Transition of economies (Score:2)
325 (by aberglas ( 991072 ))
326
327
328 1. Primary production
329 2. Manufacturing
330 3. Services
331 Services will keep things going fine. Lawyers, tax
332 accountants, retail and beauty consultants. That is
333 where the growth will come from.
334
335
336
337
338 **
339
340 ** Re: (Score:2)
341 (by nateman1352 ( 971364 ))
342
343
344 TI doesn't have state-of-the-art lithography for digital.
345 They gave up on the Moore's Law race 10 years ago after
346 they reached 45nm. TI realized during the development of
347 WinRT that building CPUs requires very expensive fabs and
348 if you are not an x86 supplier then your only option is to
349 make ARM chips, which is a race to the bottom with very
350 thin margins. TI realized they can make more money
351 building mixed signal designs on older process.
352
353
354
355 ** Re:Yeah, but . . . (Score:4, Insightful)
356 (by Graymalkin ( 13732 ) *)
357
358
359 State of the art lithography is not a synonym for
360 high-performance computer chips. In fact for a lot of uses,
361 DoD included, state of the art lithography is nowhere in the
362 requirements. Hardened chips on robust/insulated substrates
363 is more important in many uses than smaller die traces.
364
365
366 ** Re: (Score:2)
367 (by KalvinB ( 205500 ))
368
369
370 They'll be subsidized under issues of national security if
371 they're really needed by the government. The government
372 generally doesn't run bleeding edge technology so the chips
373 that can be produced in the US will be plenty sufficient for
374 government needs. If the government ever needs a $20 billion
375 plant, they'll cut a check under the national defense budget.
376 We've been comfortable with foreign made chips for decades in
377 the consumer market. Unless there is a severe national
378 security issue that won't change.
379
380
381 ** Re: (Score:2)
382 (by nateman1352 ( 971364 ))
383
384
385 Intel has the same fundamental problem with foundry that AMD
386 had 10 years ago. Every 3rd party company does not trust
387 Intel to prioritize their products over Intel's own products.
388 Intel will always build their own products on the latest
389 process node first. If you fab with Intel then your wafers
390 will always get 2nd priority over Intel's own wafers. The
391 only way that is not the case is if you are such a huge
392 customer that your contract requires Intel to construct an
393 entire new factory just for you. Then you h
394
395
396 ** Poor writing in TFA (Score:5, Informative)
397 (by whoever57 ( 658626 ))
398
399
400 "An even greater share of the world's computer chips are
401 designed domestically and made overseas by companies including
402 Qualcomm, Apple, Broadcom and Nvidia."
403 This reads as though Qualcomm, Apple, Broadcom and Nvidia are
404 making chips. What would be clear and accurate is:
405 "An even greater share of the world's computer chips are
406 designed domestically by companies including Qualcomm, Apple,
407 Broadcom and Nvidia and made overseas."
408
409 ** Still somewhat misleading... (Score:4, Informative)
410 (by YuppieScum ( 1096 ))
411
412
413 Don't forget, a hefty chunk of Qualcomm's - and pretty much
414 all of Apple's - designs are not original, but instead are
415 based on IP from ARM, a British company (although recently
416 bought out by SoftBank).
417
418 In fact, Broadcom and Nvidia are also licencees of ARM IP as
419 well, but less of their overall product range derives from
420 it.
421
422
423 ** Are you sure? (Score:3, Interesting)
424 (by Gabest ( 852807 ))
425
426
427 TSMC and Samsung are the leaders in chip making. And second
428 class Intel and AMD both have shady Middle-East ties from Israel
429 and Dubai.
430
431 ** 13% market share is not good (Score:4, Interesting)
432 (by Goldsmith ( 561202 ))
433
434
435 This is a crazy article. At the end, it meekly points out that
436 the US has a 13% market share in chip production. Given that the
437 US started this industry, leads in design in this space, leads
438 in capital available for high tech industry, and that the US
439 accounts for 15% to 18% of global GDP, a 13% market share in
440 chip production is very poor performance. This is below what you
441 might expect for a simple commodity that depends only on
442 domestic market size and way below what you'd expect for this
443 industry.
444
445