Fix Redit changing IDs
[gofetch.git] / test / expected / SLASHDOT / 0102640098
1 SOFTWARE DEVELOPERS ARE NOW MORE VALUABLE TO COMPANIES THAN
2 MONEY, SAYS SURVEY (CNBC.COM)
3
4 Thursday September 06, 2018 @11:30PM (BeauHD)
5 from the new-breed-of-corporate-leaders dept.
6
7 o Reference: 0102640098
8 o News link: https://developers.slashdot.org/story/18/09/06/2024232/software-developers-are-now-more-valuable-to-companies-than-money-says-survey
9 o Source link: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/06/companies-worry-more-about-access-to-software-developers-than-capital.html
10
11
12 An anonymous reader quotes a report from CNBC:
13
14 > As our global economy increasingly comes to run on
15 technology-enabled rails and every company becomes a tech
16 company, demand for high-quality software engineers is at an
17 all-time high. A recent study from [1]Stripe and Harris Poll
18 found that 61 percent of C-suite executives believe access to
19 developer talent is a threat to the success of their business.
20 Perhaps more surprisingly -- as we mark a decade after the
21 financial crisis -- [2]this threat was even ranked above
22 capital constraints . And yet, despite being many
23 corporations' most precious resource, developer talents are
24 all too often squandered. Collectively, companies today lose
25 upward of $300 billion a year paying down "technical debt," as
26 developers pour time into maintaining legacy systems or
27 dealing with the ramifications of bad software. This is
28 especially worrisome, given the outsized impact developers
29 have on companies' chances of success. Software developers
30 don't have a monopoly on good ideas, but their skill set makes
31 them a uniquely deep source of innovation, productivity and
32 new economic connections. When deployed correctly, developers
33 can be economic multipliers -- coefficients that dramatically
34 ratchet up the output of the teams and companies of which
35 they're a part.
36
37
38
39 [1] https://stripe.com/reports/developer-coefficient-2018
40
41 [2] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/06/companies-worry-more-about-
42 access-to-software-developers-than-capital.html
43
44
45 ** So why not treat them well? (Score:5, Insightful)
46 (by gweihir ( 88907 ))
47
48
49 Naa, that would be un-capitalist. Developers must be cheap
50 wage-slaves that do not have a real career-path and are unable
51 to find a job once they hit 50. That will surely not have any
52 impact on whether smart people go into software writing or not,
53 right?
54
55 ** Re: So why not treat them well? (Score:1)
56 (by Dannis12345 ( 5512754 ))
57
58
59 This is really true. As the fact that the IT leads the world.
60
61
62 **
63
64 ** Re: (Score:3)
65 (by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ))
66
67
68 > But even so, I hear these horror stories about how
69 > software developers are treated and I just have not seen
70 > it.
71 Me neither. I have worked for companies that had catered
72 meals, free soda, laundry service, sky diving bonding
73 trips, etc. I have had plenty of opportunities to travel.
74 I have worked some late nights, and done a few death
75 marches, but those only lasted a few weeks, out of a
76 career lasting decades.
77 Software developers are likely the most spoiled employees
78 in the history of the world.
79 People will alway whine.
80
81 ** Re: (Score:2)
82 (by gweihir ( 88907 ))
83
84
85 > People will alway whine.
86 And there you are wrong. I have a pretty good career
87 myself. But I see how many coders are treated and I am
88 not surprised at all that there are by far not enough
89 good ones.
90
91 ** Re: (Score:1)
92 (by NicknameUnavailable ( 4134147 ))
93
94
95 As much as I'm for better treatment and perks for
96 coders, the issue of "not enough good ones" isn't
97 because of that. There's only so many smart people,
98 dumb people and mediocre people don't make good
99 coders. Some of the above-average ones might make
100 the cut as maintenance coders or some incredibly
101 soul-crushing AGILE environment where they don't
102 actually have to think, but for the most part any
103 programming position of note requires a 150+ IQ to
104 do even moderately well.
105
106 **
107
108 ** Re: (Score:2)
109 (by HornWumpus ( 783565 ))
110
111
112 How many 3+ standard deviation people are we
113 supposed to believe you know?
114 Same crit as you gave the GP. I doubt you know
115 even one.
116
117
118
119 ** Re: (Score:2)
120 (by gweihir ( 88907 ))
121
122
123 The issue is very much that a lot of the few
124 people that could be good at it, see the working
125 conditions and career options and go somewhere
126 else. Also, 150+IQ people basically do not exist.
127 I gather this is some wired non-standard US
128 scale...
129
130 ** Re: (Score:3)
131 (by _Sharp'r_ ( 649297 ))
132
133
134 Having a measured IQ >150, I can tell you with
135 my excellent two-minute Googling skills there
136 are approximately 300K in the U.S. if you're
137 using the Stanford-Binet scale. For the
138 Wechsler scale, it's more like 140K, which is
139 still a lot of people. Heck, the Prometheus
140 Society's cut-off for membership is 160+. I
141 guess to you, they basically don't exist...
142
143
144 ** Re: (Score:2)
145 (by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ))
146
147
148 > ... see the working conditions and career
149 > options and go somewhere else.
150 Where do they go?
151 Doctors, lawyers and investment bankers work
152 longer hours than programmers. Nearly everyone
153 else makes less money.
154 Maybe they become underwater welders?
155
156
157
158
159
160
161
162 ** Re:So why not treat them well? (Score:5, Interesting)
163 (by spagthorpe ( 111133 ))
164
165
166 It won't really have any impact, because young people don't
167 think they'll ever get old. Or it will be different for them.
168 Had a 20-something at my last job make a number of comments
169 about some of the older developers there, saying they'd hate
170 to still be working at that age, and that they are probably
171 stuck doing the same work because they can't learn anything
172 new. I don't know why he was telling me this, as I was twice
173 his age at the time, but it's obvious that he doesn't think
174 he'll be in the same position.
175 They ultimately did lay off a lot of their senior engineers
176 and replace a lot of the position with 20-somethings,
177 including in project management positions. A number of those
178 projects never saw the light of day after years of re-writes
179 into new frameworks.
180
181
182 ** And yet there's agile (Score:2)
183 (by xxxJonBoyxxx ( 565205 ))
184
185
186 And open concept offices.
187
188 ** Re:And yet there's agile (Score:5, Interesting)
189 (by Seven Spirals ( 4924941 ))
190
191
192 I've quit one job and refused two others because of open
193 offices. The two I refused were absolutely flabbergasted by
194 my refusal. They literally could not understand why anyone
195 wouldn't want to be in an open office space surrounded on 3.8
196 sides by glass-walled manager offices, loud ugly marketing
197 girls, and a bunch of H1B dudes who couldn't be bothered to
198 wear deodorant. That place (MX Logic) had the worst looking
199 office I've ever seen. One of them offered me the job on the
200 spot after the interview and I was already shutting them down
201 and refusing it before they even got started. I told them
202 there is about a zero percent chance of getting anyone really
203 talented to take the gig, because they had this ridiculous
204 noisy slave pit thing going. I nearly left before I even
205 *did* the interview I was so disgusted with the place. The
206 hiring manager was (of course) offended, but he was also
207 clueless. About a year after that interview I had a guy come
208 up to me at the local Maker Space who was one of the
209 "technical resources" for the company during the interview
210 (quiet guy in the back of the room). He told me "My god was I
211 cheering when you refused them over the goddamn open
212 workspace idiocy. My boss was upset over that for weeks. They
213 still talk about it during the hiring process and argue about
214 it."
215
216 ** Re: (Score:1)
217 (by bkmoore ( 1910118 ))
218
219
220 > ....One of them offered me the job on the spot after the
221 > interview and I was already shutting them down and
222 > refusing it before they even got started.....
223 It begs the question, why even apply there in the first
224 place.
225
226 ** Re: (Score:3)
227 (by Klaxton ( 609696 ))
228
229
230 > It begs the question, why even apply there in the first
231 > place.
232 So you could see their office environment tucked away
233 behind the job description on the internet?
234
235
236
237 ** Re: (Score:2)
238 (by Ocker3 ( 1232550 ))
239
240
241 "But I can See everyone and I know that they're working" -
242 Manager If someone doesn't know enough about their direct
243 report's job that they don't know whether they're working
244 or not without seeing them at their desk, there's a
245 problem. Not all jobs are reduced in efficiency by a
246 cubicle farm, but if your job is primarily about mental
247 focus for the time-intensive tasks, then most people will
248 benefit from having their own room. And the employer will
249 probably benefit enough that an actual room is a
250 worthwhile
251
252
253 ** Re: (Score:2)
254 (by erp_consultant ( 2614861 ))
255
256
257 Sounds like a real horror show. Safe to say you made the
258 right move.
259
260
261
262 ** Re: (Score:3)
263 (by Klaxton ( 609696 ))
264
265
266 I've worked in the industry for many years, usually with a
267 private office or shared with one person. Recently got a job
268 in an agile "scrum" shop, which went to an open floorplan a
269 few months later. Miserable experience on both counts. Every
270 day you get a Jira work ticket for some "the user wants to
271 see" granule of a thing that you had no part in designing.
272 Zero privacy. It is amazingly de-motivating.
273
274
275 **
276
277 ** Re: (Score:2)
278 (by HornWumpus ( 783565 ))
279
280
281 Microsoft owns javascript? You have things backwards.
282
283 ** Re: (Score:2)
284 (by gweihir ( 88907 ))
285
286
287 I was thinking the same thing. Although JavaScript, Java,
288 and the surrounding ecosystems could have come from MS, no
289 doubt.
290
291
292
293 ** Yeah, right (Score:5, Insightful)
294 (by Anonymous Coward)
295
296
297 If they considered developers more important than money, they'd
298 pay the developers more to keep the skilled ones. Every time a
299 developer leaves a company, a hunk of business knowledge walks
300 out the door with him.
301 Companies care about that quarter's finance report, and the
302 C-level execs care only about fleecing the company for all they
303 can stuff into their own pockets. Look at what they do, not what
304 some survey says.
305
306 **
307
308 ** Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
309 (by Anonymous Coward)
310
311
312 LOL. You've massively understated the ageism and the issue
313 of job qualifications.
314 First, the ageism problem is associated also with a
315 problem that people aren't allowed to take breaks. After
316 having great success even to the point of being a chief
317 architect on an 80-man program, I quit working for a while
318 and now can't find anyone who will let me start at the
319 bottom.
320 But, the job qualification thing is really ridiculous. A
321 good software engineer is a specialist at picking up new
322 domains, languages, frameworks,
323
324
325 ** Re: (Score:2)
326 (by Anonymous Brave Guy ( 457657 ))
327
328
329 > Don't know where you live, but in most places I think
330 > developers are paid fairly well. We offer
331 > straight-out-of-school newbies $80-$90k, and still some
332 > turn us down for better offers.
333 Most places are not the Bay Area or a few big US cities.
334 In most of the world, new starter salaries in software
335 development are rarely more than 1/3 of that level, and in
336 many places they are much lower.
337
338
339 ** Re: (Score:2)
340 (by Ocker3 ( 1232550 ))
341
342
343 Your post is probably at zero rep because it was posted
344 AC, but you make good points.
345
346
347
348 **
349
350 ** Re: (Score:3)
351 (by Klaxton ( 609696 ))
352
353
354 Software developers generally have to do what they are told,
355 and work on whatever the boss thinks is important. You don't
356 get to decide whether it is going to bring in money or not.
357
358
359 ** Yeah haven't heard that one before (Score:2)
360 (by Crashmarik ( 635988 ))
361
362
363 Maybe it just sounds too much like 40 years of businesses
364 claiming there was a shortage of engineers in the U.S. when what
365 they meant was there was a shortage of engineers that could be
366 treated really badly.
367 Or maybe it's the fact that companies only seem to be willing to
368 hire H1Bs that will do anything not to go back to their
369 shitholes, or young kids who are stupid enough to believe
370 managements promises and have no family or social life to
371 distract from putting in 80+ hour weeks ?
372
373 ** Re: (Score:2)
374 (by zlives ( 2009072 ))
375
376
377 you misread, and i quote
378 "developer talent is a threat to the success of their
379 business" thus the hiring of no talent, spot filling h1b. and
380 if they accidentally get a talented h1b... replace and
381 repeat.
382
383
384 ** FTFY (Score:5, Funny)
385 (by thevirtualcat ( 1071504 ))
386
387
388 Software Developers Who Are Willing To Work For Uncompetitive
389 Wages And No Benefits Are Now More Valuable To Companies Than
390 Money, Says Survey
391
392 ** Re: (Score:2)
393 (by Seven Spirals ( 4924941 ))
394
395
396 Fucking-A right. Period.
397
398
399 ** .ORG (Score:4, Insightful)
400 (by fluffernutter ( 1411889 ))
401
402
403 This just tells me that developers need to get organized and
404 start saying no to 80+ work weeks collectively. Otherwise it
405 will be divided they fall, forever.
406
407 ** Re: (Score:2)
408 (by Ocker3 ( 1232550 ))
409
410
411 How do we re-invent Unions without calling them Unions and
412 avoid the very real baggage that the term has in the USA?
413 Guilds?
414
415
416 ** In other news... (Score:1)
417 (by Robobox Computer ( 5357621 ))
418
419
420 The sun rose today.
421
422 ** Legacy systems are out of control (Score:2)
423 (by xack ( 5304745 ))
424
425
426 Microsoft has just announced paid extended support for Windows 7
427 as too many companies are using it. There’s a lot of server 2003
428 systems out there too, with companies rather risking security
429 exploits than upgrade.
430
431 **
432
433 ** Re: (Score:2)
434 (by Ocker3 ( 1232550 ))
435
436
437 A pity that new features aren't separated from security
438 patches to allow users to keep their old platform secure
439 without feature changes.
440
441
442 ** Re: (Score:2)
443 (by xvan ( 2935999 ))
444
445
446 > Newer file browsers no longer let you edit the file path,
447 > you have to click on everything to get somewhere
448 Ctrl+L , no, you don't need to thank me.
449
450
451
452 ** Re: (Score:1)
453 (by Anonymous Coward)
454
455
456 So I'm supposed to upgrade the single Windows 2003 system I
457 have, running as a non-networked VM, hosting a proprietary
458 application on a system we need to lookup legacy data that
459 never changes so I can pay to upgrade to a modern system,
460 figure out a way to migrate the data from one proprietary
461 application to a new and different system just so I can have
462 support I don't need on a system that can't realistically be
463 exploited in the first place?
464 OR I'm supposed to pay a premium for extended support on the
465 curren
466
467
468 ** Re: (Score:3)
469 (by gweihir ( 88907 ))
470
471
472 That is a different problem. Their new offerings are just
473 really bad. Also, nobody sane used MS crap on server-side.
474
475
476 ** Yet us 50+ folks are unemployed (Score:4, Informative)
477 (by Snotnose ( 212196 ))
478
479
480 Forget how long I've been out of work, it's been 2-3 years now
481 since I quit looking.
482
483 ** Re: (Score:3)
484 (by Locke2005 ( 849178 ))
485
486
487 I'm 57 and got at least 3 calls TODAY offering to submit me
488 for contract software positions. Granted, a lot of recruiters
489 try to low-ball me on the hourly rate, but they change their
490 tune as soon as you call their bluff and tell them you're not
491 interested at that low rate.
492
493 ** Re: (Score:1)
494 (by Anonymous Coward)
495
496
497 > I'm 57 and got at least 3 calls TODAY offering to submit
498 > me for contract software positions. Granted, a lot of
499 > recruiters try to low-ball me on the hourly rate, but they
500 > change their tune as soon as you call their bluff and tell
501 > them you're not interested at that low rate.
502 I get recruiters wanting to submit me all the time. Then
503 after a week, I follow up and the "the position is
504 closed." I think recruiters are assholes who got fired
505 from see car lots for ethics violations.
506 So, when you get a real job with health insurance, you'll
507 be an outlier.
508 Of course, that's assumimg you're not full of shit.
509
510 ** Re: (Score:2)
511 (by Locke2005 ( 849178 ))
512
513
514 I agree; I regard recruiters as people that weren't
515 ethical enough to get jobs as used car salesmen. I
516 interviewed for a job once, didn't get any response, so
517 I started another position. A month after the initial
518 interview, the recruiter for the first position offered
519 me $1500 cash in a plain, unmarked envelope to quit the
520 job I'd just started and take the other position
521 instead! (Apparently the cash came out of his
522 commission.) So yes, recruiters know nothing, rely
523 almost entirely on keyword searching in r
524
525
526
527
528 ** So, the old adage? (Score:2)
529 (by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ))
530
531
532 Employees are our most valuable asset? I'm pretty sure it's
533 actually still money.
534
535 ** Nonsensical headline... (Score:2)
536 (by JoeDuncan ( 874519 ))
537
538
539 It's like saying "gold is worth more than money!" - totally
540 meaningless.
541 One (gold, developers) is a commodity that IS exchanged, the
542 other (money) is the medium OF exchange.
543 Saying that "commodity X" is worth more than "exchange medium Y"
544 makes no sense because a commodity CANNOT be worth "more" or
545 "less" than the medium of exchange used - it can only ever be
546 worth a specified amount of Y.
547
548 ** Talk about not understanding an article / Poll (Score:2)
549 (by Harlequin80 ( 1671040 ))
550
551
552 No where does it say that companies think developers are more
553 important than money.
554 The results state that the companies perceive the risk of not
555 being able to find skills as higher than the risks of not being
556 able to access capital.
557 This is especially true if you're a cash rich organisation.
558 In the current financial climate finding returns on your
559 investments is hard. Interest rates are at historically low
560 levels, bond returns are zero, and so that leaves higher risk
561 investments to get returns. That effecti
562
563 ** lots of employees are "worth more than money"... (Score:2)
564 (by bkmoore ( 1910118 ))
565
566
567 What management school fails to teach young inexperienced
568 executives: If the company's future existence depends on whether
569 or not an employee does the job correctly or not, they are
570 "worth more than money".
571
572 ** Tech debt is a business decision (Score:2)
573 (by swm ( 171547 ))
574
575
576 Incurring technical debt is a business decision.
577 And it may well be the right decision.
578 For example, in a startup, time to market typically trumps
579 software quality.
580 And there are a lot of startups in the software field...
581
582 ** Not at my compamy (Score:1)
583 (by dccase ( 56453 ))
584
585
586 Not at my company, and certainly not at any other
587 publicly-traded company.
588 Maybe at some privately-held company until it gets bought out.
589
590 ** Employees are our Most Valuable Asset (Score:3)
591 (by R3d M3rcury ( 871886 ))
592
593
594 Right behind [1]carbon paper. [dilbert.com]
595
596
597
598
599 [1] http://dilbert.com/strip/1993-03-03
600
601 ** And this is why we keep them chained to (Score:2)
602 (by Ranger ( 1783 ))
603
604
605 a cubicle.
606
607