--- /dev/null
+ COMPUTER CHIPS ARE STILL 'MADE IN USA' (AXIOS.COM) \r
+\r
+ Thursday September 06, 2018 @11:30PM (msmash)\r
+ from the how-about-that dept.\r
+\r
+ o News link: https://news.slashdot.org/story/18/09/06/1558206/computer-chips-are-still-made-in-usa\r
+ o Source link: https://www.axios.com/computer-chips-manufacturing-america--10dcfe13-64f3-4ea9-ad4a-cb189a00429a.html\r
+\r
+\r
+ For all the wishful thinking about manufacturing more laptops\r
+ and iPhones in the U.S., there is one sector of tech\r
+ manufacturing where America remains a leader: computer chips.\r
+ From a report: Some $44 billion worth of semiconductors are\r
+ exported from the U.S. each year, making them America's fourth\r
+ leading manufacturing export after cars, airplanes and refined\r
+ oil. There are roughly 80 wafer fabrication plants (aka fabs)\r
+ in the U.S., spread across 19 states. [...] An even greater\r
+ share of the world's computer chips are designed domestically\r
+ and made overseas by companies including Qualcomm, Apple,\r
+ Broadcom and Nvidia. A bunch of the high-tech gear needed to\r
+ produce chips is also designed and/or made in the U.S.\r
+\r
+\r
+ ** \r
+\r
+ ** Re: (Score:2)\r
+ (by bobbied ( 2522392 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ Why?\r
+ Politics of course..\r
+\r
+ ** Re: (Score:2)\r
+ (by Alwin Barni ( 5107629 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ > Why?\r
+ > Politics of course..\r
+ Could you please expand?\r
+\r
+ ** Re:Why is it "wishful thinking"? (Score:5, Funny)\r
+ (by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ >> Why?\r
+ >> Politics of course..\r
+ > Could you please expand?\r
+ P o l i t i c s o f c o u r s e.\r
+\r
+ ** Re: (Score:2, Funny)\r
+ (by Anonymous Coward)\r
+\r
+ \r
+ >>> Why?\r
+ >>> Politics of course..\r
+ >> Could you please expand?\r
+ > \r
+ > P o l i t i c s o f c o u r s e.\r
+ > \r
+ I'm not sure if I should laugh, or hunt you down and\r
+ smack you upside your head with a 2x4.\r
+\r
+ ** Re: (Score:3)\r
+ (by Highdude702 ( 4456913 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ I mean, I thought it was hilarious, and it wasn't\r
+ the name calling garbage you see here too often.\r
+\r
+\r
+\r
+ ** Re: (Score:2)\r
+ (by Alwin Barni ( 5107629 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ :-)\r
+ However:\r
+ expand ikspand/\r
+ verb\r
+ verb: expand; 3rd person present: expands; past\r
+ tense: expanded; past participle: expanded; gerund\r
+ or present participle: expanding\r
+ * become or make larger or more extensive\r
+ * give a fuller version or account of.\r
+\r
+ ** Re: (Score:2)\r
+ (by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ > :-)\r
+ > However: expand - verb ...\r
+ > (1) become or make larger or more extensive\r
+ > (2) give a fuller version or account of.\r
+ Yup, I know; I was married to an English teacher\r
+ for 20 years, but using the first definition was\r
+ funnier. :-)\r
+ [1]Remember Sue... [tumblr.com]\r
+ \r
+ \r
+ \r
+ \r
+ [1] http://remembersue.tumblr.com/\r
+\r
+\r
+\r
+\r
+\r
+\r
+ ** Re: Why is it "wishful thinking"? (Score:1)\r
+ (by Anonymous Coward)\r
+\r
+ \r
+ The only reason is automation. Jobs were never going to come\r
+ back from chip manufacturing.\r
+ They have a factory crew for setting up the parts and feeding\r
+ the machines. Pretty cheap, doesn't actually make much money\r
+ for anyone but the corporation running it. It's all\r
+ "unskilled" and low pay...setting up all those machines,\r
+ getting material dimensions in spec and running the machine\r
+ is just considered general labor.\r
+\r
+\r
+ ** Re: (Score:3)\r
+ (by YuppieScum ( 1096 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ > If the US leads in chip manufacture, why can't it be\r
+ > competitive in putting the pieces together?\r
+ Because most of the CPU silicon used in the commonest devices\r
+ - phones and laptops - is fabbed in Asia.\r
+ \r
+ Because most of the parts - like screens, RAM and flash\r
+ storage - are also made in Asia, so it's cheaper to bolt it\r
+ all together in a location closest to the source of the most\r
+ parts.\r
+ \r
+ Because final assembly of something like an iPhone is a\r
+ manual process that requires the dexterity of nimble fingers.\r
+ It's not quite the same as bolting doors onto a Chevvy.\r
+\r
+\r
+ ** Re: (Score:2)\r
+ (by GameboyRMH ( 1153867 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ Because it hardly has any of the pieces right now - it would\r
+ be a massive effort to put all the supply chains in place for\r
+ the various electronics components needed for a whole\r
+ computer when the US currently makes little more than chips.\r
+ Currently those supply chains are in Asia (which also has the\r
+ advantages of cheap labor and lax environmental laws). I'd\r
+ compare it to going from just making engine blocks to making\r
+ a whole car, but that underplays the difficulty too much.\r
+\r
+\r
+ ** Re: (Score:2)\r
+ (by AHuxley ( 892839 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ Re "why can't it be competitive in putting the pieces\r
+ together?"\r
+ Think back to the 1970 and 1980's when the CPU thing needed\r
+ new production lines and was no longer low yield skilled lab\r
+ work.\r
+ Non first world nations part pay their workers in food,\r
+ dormitories. Their introduction to work is free as its part\r
+ of the nations free "education".\r
+ Tax reductions and industrial export support then further\r
+ supports the electronics brand in the poor nation.\r
+ No unions. Lots of pollution.\r
+ \r
+ The big brands moved to ver\r
+\r
+\r
+ ** But for how long? (Score:2)\r
+ (by DMJC ( 682799 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ Sure they still do, but China is beginning to manufacture X86\r
+ CPUs directly. It's only a matter of time until they catch up\r
+ and crush Intel and AMD through undercutting, and throwing money\r
+ at the problem. [1]https://www.tomshardware.com/n...\r
+ [tomshardware.com]\r
+ \r
+ \r
+ \r
+ \r
+ [1]\r
+ https://www.tomshardware.com/news/china-zen-x86-processor-dryhan-\r
+ a,37417.html\r
+\r
+ ** Re: (Score:2)\r
+ (by Dallas May ( 4891515 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ In the long run, yes. Probably not really soon. There are\r
+ plenty of significant advances happening that space right\r
+ now. They might market to the far low end PCs, but they\r
+ aren't the market AMD and Intel really want anyway.\r
+\r
+\r
+ ** Re: (Score:2)\r
+ (by jon3k ( 691256 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ By then (10-20 years, if they're lucky) the desktop will be\r
+ commoditized and mobile (ie laptops) mostly replaced with\r
+ ARM. All the growth is in the server market and China is a\r
+ long, long way from producing an X86 CPU that can compete\r
+ with Intel Xeons. Who knows what the landscape will look like\r
+ by then.\r
+\r
+ ** Re: But for how long? (Score:2)\r
+ (by adolf ( 21054 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ This will also be the year of Linux on the desktop!\r
+\r
+ ** Re: (Score:2)\r
+ (by tsa ( 15680 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ Yeah, paradise is near!\r
+\r
+ ** Re: (Score:2)\r
+ (by adolf ( 21054 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ We're on the home stretch, boys!\r
+\r
+\r
+\r
+\r
+\r
+ ** Re: (Score:2)\r
+ (by AHuxley ( 892839 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ As long as the NRO needs hand crafted space CPU products.\r
+\r
+\r
+ ** Re: (Score:2)\r
+ (by CaffeinatedBacon ( 5363221 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ But who will people trust to make their CPU's. Intel with\r
+ their "management engine" and AMD etc all with the same is\r
+ already freaking enough people out.\r
+ Who is going to want a Chinese CPU with who knows what\r
+ running on it that you will never be able to see, has access\r
+ to everything, and can do anything it wants to "your\r
+ computer" and "your data".\r
+ Most countries would probably just ban them like they are\r
+ [1]doing for 5G telecom equipment already. [nytimes.com]\r
+ \r
+ \r
+ \r
+ \r
+ [1]\r
+ https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/23/technology/huawei-banned-a-\r
+ ustralia-5g.html\r
+\r
+\r
+ ** Yeah, but . . . (Score:5, Interesting)\r
+ (by dtmos ( 447842 ) *)\r
+\r
+ \r
+ . . . computer chips with state-of-the-art lithography soon all\r
+ will be manufactured overseas. Specifically, they will be made\r
+ by exactly two companies, [1]Samsung [samsungfoundry.com] and\r
+ [2]TSMC [tsmc.com], with GlobalFoundries' recent announcement\r
+ that it is [3]stopping development of its 7nm process\r
+ [anandtech.com]. GF operated the old IBM facility in Fishkill,\r
+ NY, and AFAIK was the last company offering state-of-the-art\r
+ foundry services with a fab in the US.\r
+ Intel is still in business, of course, and even has a [4]foundry\r
+ business [intel.com], but it cannot seem to successfully operate\r
+ it -- substantially all of its wafer starts are chips of its own\r
+ design. With the capital cost of each new-generation fab\r
+ reaching $20 billion, it's only a matter of time until Intel --\r
+ which has only its internal product base of chip designs to fill\r
+ its fabs, while Samsung and TSMC make chips for the entire\r
+ industry -- can no longer afford the move to the next\r
+ generation.\r
+ If the rest of the semiconductor industry (or the US DoD) wants\r
+ high-performance computer chips, there's now nowhere to go\r
+ except Samsung and TSMC. It will be interesting to see what\r
+ politicians do when they realize that the best digital chips can\r
+ no longer be manufactured in the US. The choice seems to be\r
+ either (1) have our economy -- everything from cell phones to\r
+ missiles -- dependent on chips manufactured overseas, or (2)\r
+ subsidize Intel's foundry business and the semiconductor\r
+ equipment manufacturers to the tune of tens of $billions, just\r
+ to keep a US source of high-performance semiconductors.\r
+ \r
+ \r
+ \r
+ \r
+ [1] https://www.samsungfoundry.com/foundry/homepage.do\r
+ [2] http://www.tsmc.com/english/default.htm\r
+ [3]\r
+ https://www.anandtech.com/show/13277/globalfoundries-stops-all-7-\r
+ nm-development\r
+ [4] https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/foundry/overview.html\r
+\r
+ ** \r
+\r
+ ** Re: (Score:3)\r
+ (by Dallas May ( 4891515 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ The same reason they haven't produced a car yet. They\r
+ could, but they don't want to. They have good deals with\r
+ their current suppliers, so why make that investment?\r
+\r
+ ** The normal Transition of economies (Score:2)\r
+ (by aberglas ( 991072 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ 1. Primary production\r
+ 2. Manufacturing\r
+ 3. Services\r
+ Services will keep things going fine. Lawyers, tax\r
+ accountants, retail and beauty consultants. That is\r
+ where the growth will come from.\r
+\r
+\r
+\r
+\r
+ ** \r
+\r
+ ** Re: (Score:2)\r
+ (by nateman1352 ( 971364 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ TI doesn't have state-of-the-art lithography for digital.\r
+ They gave up on the Moore's Law race 10 years ago after\r
+ they reached 45nm. TI realized during the development of\r
+ WinRT that building CPUs requires very expensive fabs and\r
+ if you are not an x86 supplier then your only option is to\r
+ make ARM chips, which is a race to the bottom with very\r
+ thin margins. TI realized they can make more money\r
+ building mixed signal designs on older process.\r
+\r
+\r
+\r
+ ** Re:Yeah, but . . . (Score:4, Insightful)\r
+ (by Graymalkin ( 13732 ) *)\r
+\r
+ \r
+ State of the art lithography is not a synonym for\r
+ high-performance computer chips. In fact for a lot of uses,\r
+ DoD included, state of the art lithography is nowhere in the\r
+ requirements. Hardened chips on robust/insulated substrates\r
+ is more important in many uses than smaller die traces.\r
+\r
+\r
+ ** Re: (Score:2)\r
+ (by KalvinB ( 205500 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ They'll be subsidized under issues of national security if\r
+ they're really needed by the government. The government\r
+ generally doesn't run bleeding edge technology so the chips\r
+ that can be produced in the US will be plenty sufficient for\r
+ government needs. If the government ever needs a $20 billion\r
+ plant, they'll cut a check under the national defense budget.\r
+ We've been comfortable with foreign made chips for decades in\r
+ the consumer market. Unless there is a severe national\r
+ security issue that won't change.\r
+\r
+\r
+ ** Re: (Score:2)\r
+ (by nateman1352 ( 971364 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ Intel has the same fundamental problem with foundry that AMD\r
+ had 10 years ago. Every 3rd party company does not trust\r
+ Intel to prioritize their products over Intel's own products.\r
+ Intel will always build their own products on the latest\r
+ process node first. If you fab with Intel then your wafers\r
+ will always get 2nd priority over Intel's own wafers. The\r
+ only way that is not the case is if you are such a huge\r
+ customer that your contract requires Intel to construct an\r
+ entire new factory just for you. Then you h\r
+\r
+\r
+ ** Poor writing in TFA (Score:5, Informative)\r
+ (by whoever57 ( 658626 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ "An even greater share of the world's computer chips are\r
+ designed domestically and made overseas by companies including\r
+ Qualcomm, Apple, Broadcom and Nvidia."\r
+ This reads as though Qualcomm, Apple, Broadcom and Nvidia are\r
+ making chips. What would be clear and accurate is:\r
+ "An even greater share of the world's computer chips are\r
+ designed domestically by companies including Qualcomm, Apple,\r
+ Broadcom and Nvidia and made overseas."\r
+\r
+ ** Still somewhat misleading... (Score:4, Informative)\r
+ (by YuppieScum ( 1096 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ Don't forget, a hefty chunk of Qualcomm's - and pretty much\r
+ all of Apple's - designs are not original, but instead are\r
+ based on IP from ARM, a British company (although recently\r
+ bought out by SoftBank).\r
+ \r
+ In fact, Broadcom and Nvidia are also licencees of ARM IP as\r
+ well, but less of their overall product range derives from\r
+ it.\r
+\r
+\r
+ ** Are you sure? (Score:3, Interesting)\r
+ (by Gabest ( 852807 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ TSMC and Samsung are the leaders in chip making. And second\r
+ class Intel and AMD both have shady Middle-East ties from Israel\r
+ and Dubai.\r
+\r
+ ** 13% market share is not good (Score:4, Interesting)\r
+ (by Goldsmith ( 561202 ))\r
+\r
+ \r
+ This is a crazy article. At the end, it meekly points out that\r
+ the US has a 13% market share in chip production. Given that the\r
+ US started this industry, leads in design in this space, leads\r
+ in capital available for high tech industry, and that the US\r
+ accounts for 15% to 18% of global GDP, a 13% market share in\r
+ chip production is very poor performance. This is below what you\r
+ might expect for a simple commodity that depends only on\r
+ domestic market size and way below what you'd expect for this\r
+ industry.\r
+\r
+\r
git://git.nikiroo.be / gofetch.git / blobdiff