[gofetch.git] / test / expected / SLASHDOT / 0102640098

     SOFTWARE DEVELOPERS ARE NOW MORE VALUABLE TO COMPANIES THAN   \r
                    MONEY, SAYS SURVEY (CNBC.COM)                  \r
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  Thursday September 06, 2018 @11:30PM (BeauHD)\r
  from the new-breed-of-corporate-leaders dept.\r
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  o News link: https://developers.slashdot.org/story/18/09/06/2024232/software-developers-are-now-more-valuable-to-companies-than-money-says-survey\r
  o Source link: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/06/companies-worry-more-about-access-to-software-developers-than-capital.html\r
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    An  anonymous  reader  quotes a report from CNBC: As our global\r
    economy  increasingly  comes to run on technology-enabled rails\r
    and   every   company   becomes  a  tech  company,  demand  for\r
    high-quality  software  engineers  is  at  an  all-time high. A\r
    recent  study from Stripe and Harris Poll found that 61 percent\r
    of  C-suite  executives believe access to developer talent is a\r
    threat   to   the  success  of  their  business.  Perhaps  more\r
    surprisingly  -- as we mark a decade after the financial crisis\r
    --  this  threat was even ranked above capital constraints. And\r
    yet,  despite  being many corporations' most precious resource,\r
    developer  talents  are all too often squandered. Collectively,\r
    companies  today lose upward of $300 billion a year paying down\r
    "technical  debt,"  as  developers  pour  time into maintaining\r
    legacy  systems  or  dealing  with  the  ramifications  of  bad\r
    software.  This  is  especially  worrisome,  given the outsized\r
    impact  developers  have  on  companies'  chances  of  success.\r
    Software  developers  don't  have a monopoly on good ideas, but\r
    their   skill   set  makes  them  a  uniquely  deep  source  of\r
    innovation,  productivity  and  new  economic connections. When\r
    deployed  correctly,  developers can be economic multipliers --\r
    coefficients  that  dramatically  ratchet  up the output of the\r
    teams and companies of which they're a part.\r
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  ** So why not treat them well? (Score:5, Insightful)\r
     (by gweihir ( 88907 ))\r
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     Naa, that would be un-capitalist. Developers must be cheap\r
     wage-slaves that do not have a real career-path and are unable\r
     to find a job once they hit 50. That will surely not have any\r
     impact on whether smart people go into software writing or not,\r
     right?\r
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     ** Re: So why not treat them well? (Score:1)\r
        (by Dannis12345 ( 5512754 ))\r
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        This is really true. As the fact that the IT leads the world.\r
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     ** \r
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        ** Re: (Score:3)\r
           (by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ))\r
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           \r
           > But even so, I hear these horror stories about how\r
           > software developers are treated and I just have not seen\r
           > it.\r
           Me neither. I have worked for companies that had catered\r
           meals, free soda, laundry service, sky diving bonding\r
           trips, etc. I have had plenty of opportunities to travel.\r
           I have worked some late nights, and done a few death\r
           marches, but those only lasted a few weeks, out of a\r
           career lasting decades.\r
           Software developers are likely the most spoiled employees\r
           in the history of the world.\r
           People will alway whine.\r
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           ** Re: (Score:2)\r
              (by gweihir ( 88907 ))\r
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              \r
              > People will alway whine.\r
              And there you are wrong. I have a pretty good career\r
              myself. But I see how many coders are treated and I am\r
              not surprised at all that there are by far not enough\r
              good ones.\r
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              ** Re: (Score:1)\r
                 (by NicknameUnavailable ( 4134147 ))\r
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                 \r
                 As much as I'm for better treatment and perks for\r
                 coders, the issue of "not enough good ones" isn't\r
                 because of that. There's only so many smart people,\r
                 dumb people and mediocre people don't make good\r
                 coders. Some of the above-average ones might make\r
                 the cut as maintenance coders or some incredibly\r
                 soul-crushing AGILE environment where they don't\r
                 actually have to think, but for the most part any\r
                 programming position of note requires a 150+ IQ to\r
                 do even moderately well.\r
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                 ** \r
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                    ** Re: (Score:2)\r
                       (by HornWumpus ( 783565 ))\r
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                       How many 3+ standard deviation people are we\r
                       supposed to believe you know?\r
                       Same crit as you gave the GP. I doubt you know\r
                       even one.\r
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                 ** Re: (Score:2)\r
                    (by gweihir ( 88907 ))\r
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                    \r
                    The issue is very much that a lot of the few\r
                    people that could be good at it, see the working\r
                    conditions and career options and go somewhere\r
                    else. Also, 150+IQ people basically do not exist.\r
                    I gather this is some wired non-standard US\r
                    scale...\r
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                    ** Re: (Score:3)\r
                       (by _Sharp'r_ ( 649297 ))\r
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                       \r
                       Having a measured IQ >150, I can tell you with\r
                       my excellent two-minute Googling skills there\r
                       are approximately 300K in the U.S. if you're\r
                       using the Stanford-Binet scale. For the\r
                       Wechsler scale, it's more like 140K, which is\r
                       still a lot of people. Heck, the Prometheus\r
                       Society's cut-off for membership is 160+. I\r
                       guess to you, they basically don't exist...\r
\r
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                    ** Re: (Score:2)\r
                       (by ShanghaiBill ( 739463 ))\r
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                       \r
                       > ... see the working conditions and career\r
                       > options and go somewhere else.\r
                       Where do they go?\r
                       Doctors, lawyers and investment bankers work\r
                       longer hours than programmers. Nearly everyone\r
                       else makes less money.\r
                       Maybe they become underwater welders?\r
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     ** Re:So why not treat them well? (Score:5, Interesting)\r
        (by spagthorpe ( 111133 ))\r
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        It won't really have any impact, because young people don't\r
        think they'll ever get old. Or it will be different for them.\r
        Had a 20-something at my last job make a number of comments\r
        about some of the older developers there, saying they'd hate\r
        to still be working at that age, and that they are probably\r
        stuck doing the same work because they can't learn anything\r
        new. I don't know why he was telling me this, as I was twice\r
        his age at the time, but it's obvious that he doesn't think\r
        he'll be in the same position.\r
        They ultimately did lay off a lot of their senior engineers\r
        and replace a lot of the position with 20-somethings,\r
        including in project management positions. A number of those\r
        projects never saw the light of day after years of re-writes\r
        into new frameworks.\r
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  ** And yet there's agile (Score:2)\r
     (by xxxJonBoyxxx ( 565205 ))\r
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     And open concept offices.\r
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     ** Re:And yet there's agile (Score:5, Interesting)\r
        (by Seven Spirals ( 4924941 ))\r
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        I've quit one job and refused two others because of open\r
        offices. The two I refused were absolutely flabbergasted by\r
        my refusal. They literally could not understand why anyone\r
        wouldn't want to be in an open office space surrounded on 3.8\r
        sides by glass-walled manager offices, loud ugly marketing\r
        girls, and a bunch of H1B dudes who couldn't be bothered to\r
        wear deodorant. That place (MX Logic) had the worst looking\r
        office I've ever seen. One of them offered me the job on the\r
        spot after the interview and I was already shutting them down\r
        and refusing it before they even got started. I told them\r
        there is about a zero percent chance of getting anyone really\r
        talented to take the gig, because they had this ridiculous\r
        noisy slave pit thing going. I nearly left before I even\r
        *did* the interview I was so disgusted with the place. The\r
        hiring manager was (of course) offended, but he was also\r
        clueless. About a year after that interview I had a guy come\r
        up to me at the local Maker Space who was one of the\r
        "technical resources" for the company during the interview\r
        (quiet guy in the back of the room). He told me "My god was I\r
        cheering when you refused them over the goddamn open\r
        workspace idiocy. My boss was upset over that for weeks. They\r
        still talk about it during the hiring process and argue about\r
        it."\r
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        ** Re: (Score:1)\r
           (by bkmoore ( 1910118 ))\r
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           > ....One of them offered me the job on the spot after the\r
           > interview and I was already shutting them down and\r
           > refusing it before they even got started.....\r
           It begs the question, why even apply there in the first\r
           place.\r
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           ** Re: (Score:3)\r
              (by Klaxton ( 609696 ))\r
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              \r
              > It begs the question, why even apply there in the first\r
              > place.\r
              So you could see their office environment tucked away\r
              behind the job description on the internet?\r
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        ** Re: (Score:2)\r
           (by Ocker3 ( 1232550 ))\r
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           "But I can See everyone and I know that they're working" -\r
           Manager If someone doesn't know enough about their direct\r
           report's job that they don't know whether they're working\r
           or not without seeing them at their desk, there's a\r
           problem. Not all jobs are reduced in efficiency by a\r
           cubicle farm, but if your job is primarily about mental\r
           focus for the time-intensive tasks, then most people will\r
           benefit from having their own room. And the employer will\r
           probably benefit enough that an actual room is a\r
           worthwhile\r
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        ** Re: (Score:2)\r
           (by erp_consultant ( 2614861 ))\r
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           Sounds like a real horror show. Safe to say you made the\r
           right move.\r
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     ** Re: (Score:3)\r
        (by Klaxton ( 609696 ))\r
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        \r
        I've worked in the industry for many years, usually with a\r
        private office or shared with one person. Recently got a job\r
        in an agile "scrum" shop, which went to an open floorplan a\r
        few months later. Miserable experience on both counts. Every\r
        day you get a Jira work ticket for some "the user wants to\r
        see" granule of a thing that you had no part in designing.\r
        Zero privacy. It is amazingly de-motivating.\r
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  ** \r
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     ** Re: (Score:2)\r
        (by HornWumpus ( 783565 ))\r
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        Microsoft owns javascript? You have things backwards.\r
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        ** Re: (Score:2)\r
           (by gweihir ( 88907 ))\r
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           I was thinking the same thing. Although JavaScript, Java,\r
           and the surrounding ecosystems could have come from MS, no\r
           doubt.\r
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  ** Yeah, right (Score:5, Insightful)\r
     (by Anonymous Coward)\r
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     If they considered developers more important than money, they'd\r
     pay the developers more to keep the skilled ones. Every time a\r
     developer leaves a company, a hunk of business knowledge walks\r
     out the door with him.\r
     Companies care about that quarter's finance report, and the\r
     C-level execs care only about fleecing the company for all they\r
     can stuff into their own pockets. Look at what they do, not what\r
     some survey says.\r
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     ** \r
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        ** Re: (Score:3, Interesting)\r
           (by Anonymous Coward)\r
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           LOL. You've massively understated the ageism and the issue\r
           of job qualifications.\r
           First, the ageism problem is associated also with a\r
           problem that people aren't allowed to take breaks. After\r
           having great success even to the point of being a chief\r
           architect on an 80-man program, I quit working for a while\r
           and now can't find anyone who will let me start at the\r
           bottom.\r
           But, the job qualification thing is really ridiculous. A\r
           good software engineer is a specialist at picking up new\r
           domains, languages, frameworks,\r
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        ** Re: (Score:2)\r
           (by Anonymous Brave Guy ( 457657 ))\r
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           \r
           > Don't know where you live, but in most places I think\r
           > developers are paid fairly well. We offer\r
           > straight-out-of-school newbies $80-$90k, and still some\r
           > turn us down for better offers.\r
           Most places are not the Bay Area or a few big US cities.\r
           In most of the world, new starter salaries in software\r
           development are rarely more than 1/3 of that level, and in\r
           many places they are much lower.\r
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        ** Re: (Score:2)\r
           (by Ocker3 ( 1232550 ))\r
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           Your post is probably at zero rep because it was posted\r
           AC, but you make good points.\r
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  ** \r
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     ** Re: (Score:3)\r
        (by Klaxton ( 609696 ))\r
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        Software developers generally have to do what they are told,\r
        and work on whatever the boss thinks is important. You don't\r
        get to decide whether it is going to bring in money or not.\r
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  ** Yeah haven't heard that one before (Score:2)\r
     (by Crashmarik ( 635988 ))\r
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     Maybe it just sounds too much like 40 years of businesses\r
     claiming there was a shortage of engineers in the U.S. when what\r
     they meant was there was a shortage of engineers that could be\r
     treated really badly.\r
     Or maybe it's the fact that companies only seem to be willing to\r
     hire H1Bs that will do anything not to go back to their\r
     shitholes, or young kids who are stupid enough to believe\r
     managements promises and have no family or social life to\r
     distract from putting in 80+ hour weeks ?\r
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     ** Re: (Score:2)\r
        (by zlives ( 2009072 ))\r
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        you misread, and i quote\r
        "developer talent is a threat to the success of their\r
        business" thus the hiring of no talent, spot filling h1b. and\r
        if they accidentally get a talented h1b... replace and\r
        repeat.\r
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  ** FTFY (Score:5, Funny)\r
     (by thevirtualcat ( 1071504 ))\r
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     Software Developers Who Are Willing To Work For Uncompetitive\r
     Wages And No Benefits Are Now More Valuable To Companies Than\r
     Money, Says Survey\r
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     ** Re: (Score:2)\r
        (by Seven Spirals ( 4924941 ))\r
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        Fucking-A right. Period.\r
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  ** .ORG (Score:4, Insightful)\r
     (by fluffernutter ( 1411889 ))\r
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     This just tells me that developers need to get organized and\r
     start saying no to 80+ work weeks collectively. Otherwise it\r
     will be divided they fall, forever.\r
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     ** Re: (Score:2)\r
        (by Ocker3 ( 1232550 ))\r
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        How do we re-invent Unions without calling them Unions and\r
        avoid the very real baggage that the term has in the USA?\r
        Guilds?\r
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  ** In other news... (Score:1)\r
     (by Robobox Computer ( 5357621 ))\r
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     The sun rose today.\r
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  ** Legacy systems are out of control (Score:2)\r
     (by xack ( 5304745 ))\r
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     Microsoft has just announced paid extended support for Windows 7\r
     as too many companies are using it. There’s a lot of server 2003\r
     systems out there too, with companies rather risking security\r
     exploits than upgrade.\r
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     ** \r
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        ** Re: (Score:2)\r
           (by Ocker3 ( 1232550 ))\r
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           A pity that new features aren't separated from security\r
           patches to allow users to keep their old platform secure\r
           without feature changes.\r
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        ** Re: (Score:2)\r
           (by xvan ( 2935999 ))\r
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           > Newer file browsers no longer let you edit the file path,\r
           > you have to click on everything to get somewhere\r
           Ctrl+L , no, you don't need to thank me.\r
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     ** Re: (Score:1)\r
        (by Anonymous Coward)\r
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        \r
        So I'm supposed to upgrade the single Windows 2003 system I\r
        have, running as a non-networked VM, hosting a proprietary\r
        application on a system we need to lookup legacy data that\r
        never changes so I can pay to upgrade to a modern system,\r
        figure out a way to migrate the data from one proprietary\r
        application to a new and different system just so I can have\r
        support I don't need on a system that can't realistically be\r
        exploited in the first place?\r
        OR I'm supposed to pay a premium for extended support on the\r
        curren\r
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     ** Re: (Score:3)\r
        (by gweihir ( 88907 ))\r
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        \r
        That is a different problem. Their new offerings are just\r
        really bad. Also, nobody sane used MS crap on server-side.\r
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  ** Yet us 50+ folks are unemployed (Score:4, Informative)\r
     (by Snotnose ( 212196 ))\r
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     Forget how long I've been out of work, it's been 2-3 years now\r
     since I quit looking.\r
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     ** Re: (Score:3)\r
        (by Locke2005 ( 849178 ))\r
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        I'm 57 and got at least 3 calls TODAY offering to submit me\r
        for contract software positions. Granted, a lot of recruiters\r
        try to low-ball me on the hourly rate, but they change their\r
        tune as soon as you call their bluff and tell them you're not\r
        interested at that low rate.\r
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        ** Re: (Score:1)\r
           (by Anonymous Coward)\r
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           \r
           > I'm 57 and got at least 3 calls TODAY offering to submit\r
           > me for contract software positions. Granted, a lot of\r
           > recruiters try to low-ball me on the hourly rate, but they\r
           > change their tune as soon as you call their bluff and tell\r
           > them you're not interested at that low rate.\r
           I get recruiters wanting to submit me all the time. Then\r
           after a week, I follow up and the "the position is\r
           closed." I think recruiters are assholes who got fired\r
           from see car lots for ethics violations.\r
           So, when you get a real job with health insurance, you'll\r
           be an outlier.\r
           Of course, that's assumimg you're not full of shit.\r
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           ** Re: (Score:2)\r
              (by Locke2005 ( 849178 ))\r
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              \r
              I agree; I regard recruiters as people that weren't\r
              ethical enough to get jobs as used car salesmen. I\r
              interviewed for a job once, didn't get any response, so\r
              I started another position. A month after the initial\r
              interview, the recruiter for the first position offered\r
              me $1500 cash in a plain, unmarked envelope to quit the\r
              job I'd just started and take the other position\r
              instead! (Apparently the cash came out of his\r
              commission.) So yes, recruiters know nothing, rely\r
              almost entirely on keyword searching in r\r
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  ** So, the old adage? (Score:2)\r
     (by fahrbot-bot ( 874524 ))\r
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     Employees are our most valuable asset? I'm pretty sure it's\r
     actually still money.\r
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  ** Nonsensical headline... (Score:2)\r
     (by JoeDuncan ( 874519 ))\r
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     \r
     It's like saying "gold is worth more than money!" - totally\r
     meaningless.\r
     One (gold, developers) is a commodity that IS exchanged, the\r
     other (money) is the medium OF exchange.\r
     Saying that "commodity X" is worth more than "exchange medium Y"\r
     makes no sense because a commodity CANNOT be worth "more" or\r
     "less" than the medium of exchange used - it can only ever be\r
     worth a specified amount of Y.\r
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  ** Talk about not understanding an article / Poll (Score:2)\r
     (by Harlequin80 ( 1671040 ))\r
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     \r
     No where does it say that companies think developers are more\r
     important than money.\r
     The results state that the companies perceive the risk of not\r
     being able to find skills as higher than the risks of not being\r
     able to access capital.\r
     This is especially true if you're a cash rich organisation.\r
     In the current financial climate finding returns on your\r
     investments is hard. Interest rates are at historically low\r
     levels, bond returns are zero, and so that leaves higher risk\r
     investments to get returns. That effecti\r
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  ** lots of employees are "worth more than money"... (Score:2)\r
     (by bkmoore ( 1910118 ))\r
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     \r
     What management school fails to teach young inexperienced\r
     executives: If the company's future existence depends on whether\r
     or not an employee does the job correctly or not, they are\r
     "worth more than money".\r
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  ** Tech debt is a business decision (Score:2)\r
     (by swm ( 171547 ))\r
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     \r
     Incurring technical debt is a business decision.\r
     And it may well be the right decision.\r
     For example, in a startup, time to market typically trumps\r
     software quality.\r
     And there are a lot of startups in the software field...\r
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  ** Not at my compamy (Score:1)\r
     (by dccase ( 56453 ))\r
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     \r
     Not at my company, and certainly not at any other\r
     publicly-traded company.\r
     Maybe at some privately-held company until it gets bought out.\r
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  ** Employees are our Most Valuable Asset (Score:3)\r
     (by R3d M3rcury ( 871886 ))\r
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     \r
     Right behind [1]carbon paper. [dilbert.com]\r
     \r
     \r
     \r
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     [1] http://dilbert.com/strip/1993-03-03\r
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  ** And this is why we keep them chained to (Score:2)\r
     (by Ranger ( 1783 ))\r
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     \r
     a cubicle.\r
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